[timschmidt]

> No normal person would believe the car will be ready within 1 year if it can not even handle common road signs and has been completely untested.

No normal person has access to custom built supercomputers to train AIs or teams of engineers dedicated to such. It's a weird false equivalency to base your entire argument on and leaves me to conclude that you would feel similarly about anyone engineering something which hasn't previously existed.

> He fired like half a dozen teams because they could not meet his insane deadlines showing that his promises were not based in what he learned from his engineering team, but lies in the hopes that a miracle would happen and make his lies into truth. I have not read his biography, but I have been told that this process of: "Promise it is almost ready. Relentlessly drive engineering team. Fail to meet deadline. Fire team so you now have nothing working. Promise the thing that was not working is now almost ready." is well documented.

If the man wasn't landing rockets, forcing the auto industry to electrify after even California failed to do so, connecting the world with Starlink, and allowing paralyzed people to live more fulfilling lives, you might have an argument? Whatever he's doing seems to work. Seems like a lot of problems just need management that believes the problem can be solved with enough investment and effort.

"In Australia and New Zealand, tall poppy syndrome refers to successful people being criticised. This occurs when their peers believe they are too successful, or are bragging about their success.[1][2] Intense scrutiny and criticism of such a person is termed as "cutting down the tall poppy"."

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome

And no, it is not established that because you cited one person's deposition and "mutual friends with one of the former heads of Autopilot" that you "actually do know" what work Elon is exposed to from his engineering teams. What a weird claim to make when you're not sitting in on the meetings yourself.

I find the thousands of hours of RE work done by https://www.youtube.com/@MunroLive to be a much more credible indicator of the kind of thinking and work that goes on at Tesla.

[Veserv]

Your argument is that Elon Musk knows something we do not about how fast they are improving which is why every single year for a literal decade he has promised a unsupervised self driving system and every single year for that decade he has a produced a unsupervised self driving system that can not even read basic road signs, is 10,000x worse than a human driver, has not even begun validation, and that has killed tens to hundreds of people. Your argument flies in the face of reality. He is demonstrably unable to predict progress by literal factors of thousands and yet makes unequivocal statements that it will be completed in timelines that would be impossible even if the product were literally already done and only validation was required.

And again you go to irrelevant arguments. Are you saying that it is okay to lie aggressively just because you happen to get it right in unrelated fields? Because as we see, he is totally and utterly wrong on his self-driving promises. But that is okay because he lies all the time and sometimes it works out? Who cares about the lying as long as we electrify the auto industry. Oh, should we also overlook all the ridiculous racism in the factories as well? And all those people they killed for no reason are just fertilizer for a glorious future, they should be glad that they could be sacrificed.

At this point I am bored of this thread since I have already made my point and all you do is present the bad faith and irrelevant PR bullet points parroted by the Elon Musk cult. Anybody who is actually reading this thread should see how fallacious and morally bankrupt that position is so I am done here. Have fun.

[timschmidt]

Bored and pissed off at successful people is a rough way to live life, buddy. I feel for you. I know hating on Elon is the popular thing to be doing these days, but you don't have to demonize folks you don't agree with. I happen to appreciate the work each of his companies are doing. I appreciate the level of engineering knowledge apparent in discussions with him, which in my experience is unusual at the management level. No one else out there is building Starship - Jeff Bezos and NASA included. And my appreciation for all these things stems from a multidisciplinary understandin of the complexity of the engineering and organizational and economic efforts involved in making a Mars shot not only viable but profitable and sustainable. Elon has absolutely done things I don't agree with - everyone has - that just doesn't prevent me from appreciating the things he invests his time and effort and resources into doing, when he doesn't need to.

I think it's fair to say that autopilot hasn't worked out as quickly as Musk had hoped. But I also find myself forced in the same breath to acknowledge that Tesla has made a great deal of progress, maybe more than any other car company, at solving a problem I've paid attention to since the DARPA grand challenge days.

I think it's wonderful to have big dreams as a society, and to reach for them, and accomplish them. It's inspiring. Maybe you should take notes. Thanks for expressing yourself.