[atourgates]

My guess is around notifications and handoff to iPhone apps.

I tried Garmin watches, and they're certainly better as "exercise tracking devices" than anything Apple offers, but they weren't tightly enough integrated with my iPhone to make it "worth it" to me to wear them all the time.

An Apple Watch Ultra - on the other hand - is a poorer exercise tracking device, but gives me enough "integrated with my iPhone" benefit to become the first watch I've worn consistently in 30+ years.

I assumed this was the result of design and development choices by Garmin, but it'll be interesting to see if their are meaningful ways that Apple restricts smartwatch developers from including similar levels of integration.

[0xffff2]

Can you expand on what "integrated with my iPhone" means in concrete terms? I don't really understand what you mean.

[InsomniacL]

I don't use smart watches but I have an example on the trackers.

Tile created trackers and every so often I get an annoying popup

> ~"Tile has been using your location, do you want to stop this?"

Apple then created a competitor product, 'AirTags', but their product does not have these popups.

This is anti-competitive because Apple bypass the restrictions they made on their platform for their product that their competitive have to follow.

[jorvi]

Longest-running example is Apple Maps displaying mapping on the lockscreen and having special bespoke turn-by-turn notifications, using a private API to which no other navigation app has access to.

The other big one is Apple muscling itself into the music streaming market by converting Music.app into Apple Music. In a fair world, Apple would have been required to show a pop-up that offered Spotify, Apple Music, Tidal, Deezer etc. in a random order. You can’t unmake an omelette, so I feel Apple should be forced to pay billions to these competing services as recompense.

[HumblyTossed]

> Longest-running example is Apple Maps displaying mapping on the lockscreen and having special bespoke turn-by-turn notifications, using a private API to which no other navigation app has access to.

This is a huge one! I love this feature, but really would like to see it shared with Google and Waze.

[positus]

People know how to use the App Store. If they want Spotify they know how to find it. It is by no means unfair, immoral, or unethical for a company to prefer and promote their own products.

On a personal note, I never in my life want to see advertisements for third-party software by default.

[oarsinsync]

> On a personal note, I never in my life want to see advertisements for third-party software by default.

You might want to avoid buying any new Apple products then, or your iPhone settings screen will regularly show you adverts for free trials for Apple News, Apple TV, Apple fitness, Apple Arcade.

Better still, unlike every other free trial in this ecosystem, these terminate the moment you cancel the trial, rather than at the end of the trial period.

[jorvi]

> People know how to use the App Store.

Apparently they didn’t because Apple Music boomed right after that change.

> It is by no means unfair, immoral, or unethical for a company to prefer and promote their own products.

It is when that company is one part of a duopoly, especially for a device pretty critical to daily life :+)

> On a personal note, I never in my life want to see advertisements for third-party software by default.

It’s a one-time pop-up, on opening the music app the first time. Same as the browser choice pop-up on your desktop. Hardly an advertisement.

[positus]

> Apparently they didn’t because Apple Music boomed right after that change.

I wonder how much offering discounted subscriptions to students or iCloud Family users also contributed to its success.

> It’s a one-time pop-up, on opening the music app the first time. Same as the browser choice pop-up on your desktop. Hardly an advertisement.

I don't like browser selection options either. Then again, I tend to use Apple's default apps unless I have an unusual reason to use something else.

[bluk]

> It is by no means unfair, immoral, or unethical for a company to prefer and promote their own products.

Unfairness is at the heart of so many antitrust lawsuits (whether successful or not). Anyone old enough to recall Microsoft in the 1990s would say that many people (not at MSFT) were pointing out how unfair bundling Internet Explorer was. You may disagree but it was one of the reasons MSFT got sued.

[tssge]

>On a personal note, I never in my life want to see advertisements for third-party software by default.

Maybe I misunderstood your point, but could you clarify a bit what you mean? If I open App Store on my iPhone, it is full of third-party software advertisements by default and I don't even know if they can be turned off.

[positus]

After downloading the software that I know I need I rarely ever open the App Store. I really only do for updates every once in a while. I don't mind them in the App Store because that is an appropriate place for them. Seeing them as apart of the normal platform UI (Microsoft Start menu, looking at you) is distasteful. I go out of my way to avoid advertisements both on and off the internet and my QOL has improved greatly as a result.

[cush]

It is when they charge those companies 30%. It’s a competitive advantage only a monopoly can sustain

[heavyset_go]

You already see them on the App Store.

[mock-possum]

RIP lala.com, my first and favorite music streaming service - bought out by apple and summarily closed with previous users encouraged to migrate to Apple Music. I think I got a $15 credit or something. As if I needed a reason to further resent Apple.

[mattl]

> by converting Music.app into Apple Music

Apple made iTunes (which already supported Apple Music) into a dedicated Music app, and offloaded some of the other stuff iTunes could do into separate apps and the Finder.

[jorvi]

I’m mostly talking about iOS. Mac market share isn’t too huge, but iPhone market share in the US (where Apple Music exploded in user count immediately after) is.

Ordinarily I hate market interventions like this, but with iOS+Android being a duopoly, we don’t have a free market so special rules start to apply.

[ssully]

Not saying this to defend Apple, but last week I had that same location tracking pop up for Apples Weather app.

[rezonant]

Yes but that doesn't distract from the airtags issue, because airtags are supported by the OS itself, not a specific app. Good on Apple for applying the same rules to it's apps, but not so good on Apple for not giving Tile a way to work in the same manner as airtags.

[shagie]

https://www.macrumors.com/2021/05/04/tile-ceo-on-competition...

> > The main points of differentiation of AirTags vis a vis Tile are enabled by platform capabilities that we don't have access to.

> Apple has, in fact, launched the Find My network that gives third-party accessories some of the same access that AirTags have, and Find My network accessories will be able to access the U1 chip in the iPhone 11 and 12 models much like the AirTags, but Tile won't be able to use the Find My network unless it abandons its own app and infrastructure, which it is likely unwilling to do.

> Prober said that Tile has been "seeking to access" the U1 chip since its introduction in the iPhone , and has been denied.

---

Here's the developer docs for accessing the U1 chip https://developer.apple.com/documentation/nearbyinteraction/...

... and a presentation on the use of the U1 chip with 3rd party accessories at WWDC 2021 https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2021/10165/

[rezonant]

This is different. This is Apple saying use our network, not allowing Tile to use their own.

[HumblyTossed]

Also, Apple licenses out the Find My tech to other trackers. But... you don't get the new precision finding features.

[shagie]

> But... you don't get the new precision finding features.

https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2021/10165/ appears to suggest differently.

[HumblyTossed]

Maybe it's new because existing ones that work with Find My cannot.

[shagie]

They have to buy the chips (and integrate them) from a vendor like https://www.st.com/en/wireless-connectivity/ultra-wideband-p... or https://www.nxp.com/applications/enabling-technologies/conne...

It isn't something that any device can do by default. For example, Samsung integrated it into their Smart Tags ( https://www.androidpolice.com/samsung-smarttag-2-uwb/ )

[cpuguy83]

Not really defending Apple here since they do have an unfair advantage over on these trackers.

But even the weather app triggers that same location pop up.

[lotsofpulp]

I would bet most people already know using an Apple product and agreeing to the Find My and other terms in intial setup means Apple is always tracking you. So a pop up from Apple saying that Apple is tracking you makes no sense, it is already known, and accepted by the device user.

Someone other than Apple tracking you, however, is notable, and so people (at least I) would always want to know if someone other than Apple is tracking me via software operating on the device.

[InsomniacL]

I would bet most people buying tracking devices know those tracking devices are tracking location.

The point is Apple as a platform provider made something (location without warning) on the platform available to themselves as a platform user (Airtags), that they didn't make available to other platform users who are their competitors (Tile).

[jchw]

But, some Apple apps do in fact tell you that. This actually does make sense, too. When you collect information for one specific reason, it doesn't mean the user has granted you consent to use it for other purposes carte blanche.

One might retort "Fine, but then granting that permission once is enough." Apparently, that is only true sometimes, and only for Apple.

[Draiken]

Why? Because a user allowed them to track them when using one app, it doesn't mean should extend automatically that to every app they ever develop.

This is clearly Apple apps being treated differently.

[lotsofpulp]

>Why? Because a user allowed them to track them when using one app, it doesn't mean should extend automatically that to every app they ever develop.

The whole point of the notification is to notify you when an entity is tracking you. If you already know Apple is tracking you, then it does not make a difference if Apple's App A or App B or App C is tracking you, it is all Apple.

[Draiken]

I must be missing something because that's simply not true in Android. I can individually grant/revoke tracking permissions for each app. I assumed the same would be true for iPhone.

For me it makes no sense to make it only about the entity. It's like saying "the US government is tracking you", instead of saying "the US government is tracking you through this app right now"

[positus]

I'm pretty sure you're asked whether or not you want to enable Location Services when going through Setup Assistant during the initial device provisioning.

[shrew]

Not the parent, but just a few things I’d guess would be Apple Watch specific:

- I’ve had employers that require a confirmation step from an app as a form of 2FA. If my phone isn’t awake, the notification comes to my watch and I can approve my login from my wrist

- If some action requires typing on my watch, I get a prompt on my iPhone to do the typing there instead of on the tiny watch keyboard. The characters I type via the phone appear in real time on the watch as if I were typing directly

- Dismissing and snoozing notifications syncs so I don’t have to dismiss and snooze notifications on multiple devices

- Similarly, if I set an alarm on my phone, the alarm will ring on my phone and, if I’m wearing it, vibrate my watch without further setup. Again, actions I perform to that alarm can all be performed on the watch or phone.

I’d guess these are all tiny, tiny quality of life features, but I’d be very surprised if other non-Apple watches have the ability to implement them.

[S_A_P]

Not the original poster but for me it means not having to look at my phone for many tasks. I can see who texted or messaged me and the message without opening my phone. I can take or ignore a call. Basically anything that hits your message alerts can be displayed on the watch in most cases.

Maybe the Apple Watch is not the best fitness tracker watch but it’s plenty good for me and it’s health integration is pretty good especially with the ultra.

[shagie]

When setting up my Windows machine I was given the opportunity to pair it with my iPhone via Phone Link. In doing so, my Windows machine was able to get all of the notifications that I saw on the Lock Screen of my iPhone, and call history (make and receive calls too).

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/sync-across-your-dev... and https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2023/04/26/phone...

I assume that this functionality is available to other devices too.

[afavour]

It’s a poor subset of the functionality available to the Apple Watch. One obvious example is that you can reply to a message on an Apple Watch, not so over the API Windows uses.

[shagie]

Here's a description of the functionality on Windows which includes replying to a message. https://youtu.be/M4ihxL7B2ug?t=157&si=AaA6wvzbTuIL3eOC

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2023/04/26/phone...

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/sync-across-your-dev...

> Read and reply to messages with ease, make and receive calls, and manage your device’s notifications right on your PC (1) (2)

> 1 Messaging feature is limited by iOS. Image/video sharing and group messaging is not supported. Messages are session based and will only come through when phone is connected to PC.

> 2 Phone Link for iOS requires iPhone with iOS 14 or higher, Windows 11 device, Bluetooth connection and the latest version of the Phone Link app. Not available for iPad (iPadOS) or MacOS. Device compatibility may vary. Regional restrictions may apply. Trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

[atourgates]

Yep. That's exactly right.

When a phone call comes in, or I get a notification (text, calendar, app notification etc) - my Apple Watch does a really good job of (quite often) giving me enough info from my wrist that I don't need to pull my phone out of my pocket.

Garmin watches have some of this integration (IIRC you can definitely get texts, I don't remember what else) - but certainly not all of it. I haven't tried smartwatches from other manufacturers.

[mousetree]

Does a Garmin watch not do that? I often see people looking at notifications on their non-Apple watch.

[0xffff2]

I can do all of that with my Garmin watch though?

[wlesieutre]

It's been years, but IIRC the main disparity was with responding to notifications.

On Android you could pick a pre-written reply to texts or even dictate a response.

On iOS you couldn't do anything but close the notification.

[GnarfGnarf]

For example, the Apple Health App automatically talks to my dieting app, so when I walk, I get credit for the calories.

[bitcurious]

A Garmin watch can’t track heart rate during an Apple Fitness Plus workout, an example.

[SllX]

Yeah but that’s a separate paid service tied to specific hardware, not so much an iPhone feature as an Apple TV and Watch feature. Garmin can integrate into HealthKit as well as any other fitness tracker.

[bitcurious]

Apple's main fitness competitor Peloton supports non-peloton fitness bands, cadence meters, etc.

[SllX]

Good for Peloton. Fairly certain you still need to use their workout equipment, unless that changed.

It’s a different business model.

[8note]

That is to say, they communicate directly with each other and not through the iPhone?

[SllX]

So IIRC, you need the Apple TV to actually participate in the Fitness+ workouts, this is used to display them and as far as I know this hasn’t changed, but if it has, someone else can chime in and correct me.

The Apple Watch itself has WiFi and optionally LTE. It does like to boost off an iPhone’s Bluetooth and let the iPhone do the heavy lifting, but it isn’t required to connect to the Internet and honestly works better when it does (at the cost of battery life). So yeah, more or less, but you still need the Watch paired to an iPhone (because it is an iPhone accessory at its core), and the data is going to be logged to the Health app, and the relevant data (heart rate, workout time, whatever else gets logged for the workout) can be made available to an ecosystem of independent hardware and services. The weight my scale logs for example gets tracked by the vendor service, the Health app, and my food tracker via the Health app.

Either way, Fitness+ is a premium service, not a feature of the iPhone. That it requires specific hardware doesn’t make it particularly special in this regard either.

[ben7799]

Most Garmin users wouldn't ever be using Apple Fitness+ to workout.

Totally different markets. The lack of sensor compatibility and lack of battery life make the Apple Watch a non-starter for a lot of the really serious fitness/sports use cases.

[fennecbutt]

>weren't tightly enough integrated with my iPhone to make it "worth it" to me to

To buy them in the first place, for many consumers. Which is exactly what apple had hoped to achieve.