[camhart]

Look at the former careers of the leadership of this church.

* Russel Nelson - Former surgeon, known for performing the first open heart surgery west of the Mississippi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_M._Nelson)

* Henry Eyring - Former Stanford professor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_B._Eyring)

* Dallin Oaks - Former Lawyer, Judge, and University of Chicago professor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallin_H._Oaks)

There are 12 others you can dig into as well, most of which are very highly educated (Elder Gong, who is mentioned in the article, is one of these 12): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum_of_the_Twelve_Apostles_...

[nabla9]

Money&Power is attraction for smart and educated people to get deep into internal power struggles of the Church.

The Church has $265 billion in assets. Their power and influence goes way beyond that. The Ensign Peak portfolio alone is over $50 billion and they vote in board meetings.

They suck money from their members with annual tithing, but they are now so wealthy that the overall church’s investment income now exceeds that (they give only tiny fraction of their income to humanitarian work)

LDS is a religion as a business.

[lcall]

Members are taught to save "for a rainy day" (and to avoid debt, obtain education, and to be good to everyone, starting at home). The Church as an institution also follows their own advice. They have so many money-consuming projects going on that if there were serious economic problems, these resources would help it continue those efforts instead of having to dramatically cut back (feeding, employing, accredited global online higher-ed and English instruction and support to those who could not otherwise afford it, building programs, extensive welfare and humanitarian programs, etc etc). More info at the Church's site or my own (in profile).

[scrubs]

The salient point isn't any of what you mention. Basic new testament teachings suggest outreach and help is the church's business: feed, cloth the poor. See also Alger's "Ragged Dick."

Leadership isn't stating an AI policy then putting it our for the world to see. It isn't having billions in cash and assets. Rainy day? You aren't guaranteed tomorrow. Maximal help today is indicated. Spend it.

I'm reminded of the lady who rolled into a TX legislature pushing for a Christian goal last year I think. The legislature guy (an evangelical himself) smartly didn't get drawn into silly arguments merely saying the church's business is helping people not pushing rules in public schools. The applicant had no reply.

[lcall]

Thanks for your thoughtful comment. We believe the Church is led by Christ through his living prophets, who are not perfect, but whodefinitely seek his guidance for their decisions, many of which must be made unanimously by the 12 and the First Presidency. I believe it (or know it) because of the many reasons listed at my web site (in profile).

[camhart]

I get the sense you have some anger towards the faith, so I hesitate to respond. I'm not trying to argue with you. But I do want to address your points at least from my perspective.

> Money&Power is attraction

The leaders receive an annual "living expense" stipend. It's not publicly available, but there have been data leaks. The last data leak puts it at $130k in 2014 (estimated to be $178k in 2024). See https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/comp/. While this is a decent amount of money, given the educational/business success of most of the leadership it's likely less than most would have made had they not given up their career. Does that justify it? That's up to each person to decide. But given that there are ~17 million members of the faith, and 117 people receive the stipend, I think there are more lucrative approaches for making money. To be clear there are other paid employees of the Church too, though no local clergy are paid. If you walk into a typical church meeting on Sunday not a single person there is being paid. The employees work in IT/accounting/etc type roles that a large organization would have.

> The Church has $265 billion in assets. Their power and influence goes way beyond that. The Ensign Peak portfolio alone is over $50 billion and they vote in board meetings.

Investing is a good thing. It's what creates more/better jobs. Why shouldn't the investment managers vote in board meetings? They're acting as a wise investor by doing so.

> They suck money from their members with annual tithing

Members willingly donate as an act of faith. There isn't a bowl/hat or anything passed around. Donations are made predominantly online now too.

> they give only tiny fraction of their income to humanitarian work

I would like to see overall humanitarian aid increased, and from what I understand that is the goal. For context though, they donated > $1 billion in 2022. And this doesn't account for the countless hours members volunteer for free. The money alone is more than what's donated by every country on the earth aside from USA and Germany. See https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/2022-annual... and https://www.statista.com/statistics/275597/largers-donor-cou....

[nabla9]

It's the control over that sum of money and power that is intoxicating.

The assets not under their name does not matter. Just like politicians, they have wast control and power.

> Members willingly donate as an act of faith.

And I admire them for that just as much as I admire Evangelical TV-pastors and pyramid scheme marketers. Mormonism was invented by a conman, so it's not surprise that they are good cowmen.

[mrkstu]

The problem with that perspective is that there isn't a 'career ladder' here.

You don't volunteer for any position within the LDS church, you are 'called,' so if you happen to be pulled into the higher echelons, it isn't because you've followed your inner Wolf of Wall Street, but that your selfless service (i.e. no money or other reward) has been noticed and seen as a likely good candidate for even more selfless service of serving even more hours unrewarded.

There just aren't many people with a money or power motivated personality that would bother, and again, even if one had ambitions that way, there isn't a job application somewhere in the chain that gets you there.

Money in the Church is a spin-off of a highly educated membership (a large number of members, for instance, donate stock that they've gotten through work, and donate when it is at a much higher price than granted by their work,) with a large base in North America, that ended up with literally more money than they could spend based on their remit- that tithes goes to a narrow spectrum of possible uses. So they've ended up with a situation somewhat similar to the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth fund, where their rules of management of 'sacred' funds just starts adding upon itself faster and faster.

Charitable giving is supposed to come from a specific line item donation, Fast Offerings, and a very large amount of money does indeed go through that pipeline. There are a LOT of temples and chapels being built for the membership, and that has been made possible by the financial strength of the church, but it is a growing political problem that I will find it interesting how they deal with, but a much better problem than the near bankruptcy they had happen around the Great Depression that prompted a lot of the fiscal conservatism that ended up creating this situation.

[bedobi]

OK? Is this meant to somehow absolve mormonism's long and well documented record of being an abusive cult? (which the "leaders" are ultimately in no small part responsible for?)

[lcall]

Abusive is very far from my personal experience. It is the best influence in my and my extended family's life. Generally, it seems like those who are most happy and most educated are usually the most active. It takes a lot of work to build something that lasts across the generations. We are taught service to others, forgiveness, and kindness. It has brought me and my wife peace and a sense of security despite health and others of life's expected challenges.

There is more at my web site (in profile, tech-simple, nothing for sale).

[camhart]

It was a response to the following:

> Strange place for principled thought leadership to come from

[lukan]

No, it was just stating the fact that they seem to have technical expertise.

[nabla9]

You can admire them for their competence.

Mormons are spiritually pure amoral capitalists. Religion united with wealth and politics. A Perfect American Religion.

[sandspar]

In the states surrounding Utah, you'll often find that the best lawyers and dentists and people like that are Mormon.