[SkyBelow]

To expand upon this, the majority of the complaints I see are coming from the online community where the largest part of the material seems to be based of IP/copyright violation by the artists. I've been part of multiple communities who have decided to ban AI art because of a moral clause against using other's peoples works without their permission, but yet which don't like having it pointed out that the IP holders have withheld their permission of their characters being used for unlicensed artwork.

While some of this are people practicing their artwork and I don't see any reason we should care what artwork someone practices on, this is also the general trend for artwork being sold. Go to any convention where artists sell work and look at how much artwork is sold of characters the artists do not have license to. While I think one can take a philosophical stance against the current IP laws that outlaw this, such a stance would make it quite hard to oppose the use of content in training an AI.

In short, if those making the AI stole IP to train the AI, it was stolen from a community that was fine with IP theft that benefitted them. And if the claim is that it wasn't IP theft because the law was generally tolerating it (as long as no one became so much a target they received a C&D), then unless there are some lawsuits won against the AI it would be equally allowed.

(And of course individuals will have their own philosophical stances which might be much more consistent, I'm speaking of the generalized view I have developed from overall interactions with parts of the community and as such it is not meant to be strongly prescriptive to any specific member of the community).

[cdata]

Personally I think framing this as some kind of double-standard regarding copyright or even a copyright-specific issue misses the forest for the trees.

The problem I see is that the generative AI economy hinges on an injustice: the presumption that all art on the internet - no matter the medium, or means or relative notoriety of the artist - shall be candidate training data, and no burden of attribution whatsoever shall be laid upon those who leverage it.

Most graphic artists that I know bemoan copyright. But, it's a tool that the law has given them.

Also: most graphic artists that I know exist under low economic circumstances - some near poverty - relative to most of the people I know who are building the next great wave of technological innovations with generative AI.

I don't see a struggle over copyright. Artists, who exist towards the bottom of the economic ladder as it is, are doing what they can to survive.

[SkyBelow]

>no matter the medium, or means or relative notoriety of the artist - shall be candidate training data

Why is this a special case? When people were viewing it, reposting it, using it to learn... those were all accepted uses. Passing it off as your own wasn't allowed, but outright plagiarism has pretty consistently been unaccepted.

The problem seems to stim from using it in a way that directly competes with the artist, and given your other point about their financial position, is a direct financial threat to them. The morality of the situation seems to be that it is wrong because of the financial harm, but recognizing that such an argument is rarely accepted, it must instead be justified by some other argument, any other argument, that condemns the outcome.

I don't think this is anything particularly unique. How often do we find things wrong because of a logical argument as to why it is wrong, and how often do we find a logical argument to justify our felling that something is wrong?

There is also a element of helplessness. No matter what the government does, pandora's box has been opened and it can't be closed. While it might slow down the development of better AI, it isn't going to stop it and banning existing software isn't going to be possible. The damage has been done, and even if the artists have an overwhelming victory, they are only going to recover a fraction of lost ground only to eventually lose it again.

[cdata]

The tricky part is that the ongoing training of ever-more-interesting generative AI *depends* on the ongoing labor of artists.

Proponents of the current economic model like to frame the artist rejection of AI as an obvious case of Luddism. Of course the artists reject this, it threatens their economic station! And: it's not even wrong.

But, it is a high modernist foible: at some point the raw resource is fully exploited and the wave of companies that rode high on its vast-but-unrenewable quantity will reckon with reality. Their businesses are unsustainable (who could have foreseen it!).

In the mean time, artists won't disappear. Most likely what will happen is that they will continue to subsist - they are essential in this economic loop, whether fairly compensated for their labor or not - but with an even lower economic posture than before.

I don't think there is a moral crisis here, but an economic one. Incidentally, an injustice is perpetrated upon an entire class of laborers. I'll leave it to others to decide the morality of that, considering all the trade-offs.

[SkyBelow]

>The tricky part is that the ongoing training of ever-more-interesting generative AI depends on the ongoing labor of artists.

I think there is an ongoing issue. Much like how the privatization of the public domain has led to an ongoing issue of a large percent of our culture being privately owned. I'm not sure the fix to this.

I am by no means happy with the current situation, but I do find the moral reasoning behind the outrage at AI questionable at best as it doesn't seem to be consistent and instead based on what is economically beneficial to those showing outrage. By that same standard, AI is great because it lets me create things at a much cheaper cost.

Artist creating art of popular characters and AI using publicly posted art both seem pretty acceptable to me. Then again I'm the weirdo who goes to conventions to buy originals, the ones actually painted on canvas and not just easily reproducible prints, even though that does mean paying far more than the prints cost.

[cdata]

We are booking our tickets to Comic-Con. We tap through the form, maneuvering past the cumbersome AI-generated takeover promoting a new prestige TV show. The AIs are getting pretty good, and seem to have moved beyond the glassy-eyed doll faces characteristic of the Stable Diffusion era. Nevertheless, the ads are obnoxious and we can't wait to submit the form and get off of this website.

A memory rises unbidden: we once made comics and posted them to the web, free for all to read. We would even browse the web just to find and read them. Wild.

We find ourselves circuiting the convention hall. It is a brightly lit maze, festooned with endless AI-generated promotions for Marvel supers and yesteryear reboots. The cast of Friends is back, youthful as ever, and apparently we're getting at least three more seasons. We round a corner and..

Here. Yes, here. We remember it now. This whole row was once filled with tables showcasing prints and original works of art. Behind the tables: a spouse, a friend, or the artist in the flesh. Artists, who were remarkable in their day for their contributions to the great pop culture that drew us to the convention. Artists who, despite their labor and their infamy among certain fandoms, never appeared in a legible place on the credit roll. Artists who worked a day job for years, stocking shelves, packing boxes, approving Disney licensee merchandise, so that in the evening they might bend their weary backs, put pen to tablet and spill their imaginations across the screen. Artists who did all that so that we could come to Comic-Con today and appropriate for ourselves an original work of their art.

Where once there were artists, now there is Hello Kitty. Sanrio has taken over the whole row. You can walk up to Hello Kitty and ask it for any combination of officially licensed characters, with optional accessories if you have a few more dollars to spend. A 3D printer somewhere behind the booth's facade fabricates the bespoke toy on-demand in food-safe ABS. An original work of art.

[uaserussia]

>ongoing training of even-more-interesting generative AI depends on the ongoing labor of artists. What does that mean? That you need artist to produce "even-more-interesting" art to train new iterations of generative AI? Could you point out some of these superfresh new art artist are doing that are completely different than things already done to exhaustion in the 1970s (other than anime)?

I don't think you need artists for that anymore. Certainly you don't need them for commercial purposes. If they are going to survive as an artist professionally, it will be because of the people that refuse to use AI art for whatever reason, but I don't see how that won't be short lived in the market.

Artists will survive, not professionally, but because they are doing it for the arts sake, even if that doesn't offer them any financial reward.

[__loam]

Yeah one thing that's often missed in these discussions is that the AI companies still need the artists! When you overexploit the commons, there will be consequences. We'll see if the synthetic data is good enough or not for future models I guess.

[pclmulqdq]

> the largest part of the material seems to be based of IP/copyright violation by the artists

What do you mean by this? Fan art is pretty well known to be fair use, particularly because it is transformative and it has no commercial intent. AI training is transformative alright, but the commercial intent part is a huge factor in the analysis. The fair use analysis is very much not clear at this point.

[stale2002]

> it has no commercial intent.

Under what possible analysis does art sold at a convention, by full time professional artists, not count as being done for a commercial purpose?

[pclmulqdq]

Does this actually happen at large scale without the permission of the owner of the IP?

I can see someone making a few hundred bucks with their fan art, but doing tens of thousands of dollars of business is a different story.

The main commercial factor (per the courts - see the recent Warhol lawsuit) is whether the derivative work competes in the market with the original work. I sincerely doubt that even if there is large-scale selling of fan art at conventions, that fan art is meaningfully competing with (ie reducing) the market for the original IP.

[stale2002]

> Does this actually happen at large scale

Yes?

Go to any convention center. Go commission a piece of art on the internet.

It is almost all infringing "fan art".

> I can see someone making a few hundred bucks with their fan art

Its not some rando person doing this stuff for a hobby. Instead, I am talking about the entire industry.

All you'd have to do is go to any gaming/media/comic convention and this is immediately obvious.

> that fan art is meaningfully competing with (ie reducing) the market for the original IP.

I mean, ok? Then if thats your metric, then you can't complain about the entire open source industry of people making AI art on their home PCs.

If you are giving that gigantic, large hole to slip through, then you have now allowed almost the entire open source AI art industry to exist.

[pclmulqdq]

> All you'd have to do is go to any gaming/media/comic convention and this is immediately obvious.

Most of the gaming/media/comic conventions I have been to have involved game/media/comic artists selling their own work, not people selling fan art. In fact, the presence of the original artists selling copies of their original works is generally a big draw for the convention. Maybe we go to different conventions or something (I have never been to an anime convention - so maybe that's what you're referring to). The little third-party art I have seen at these conventions is sold with the explicit permission of the original artist/IP holder. So no, it is not "obvious" to me, as someone who has actually gone to a few gaming/comic conventions before, that fan art is a huge industry or that it undercuts demand for the original art.

The fan art I have seen is generally drawn by (professional/high-end amateur) artists for free on deviantart because they like the characters or want to practice their skills.

Also, nobody is currently suing (or particularly upset) over people making art on their home PCs. People are suing over companies selling AI art generators for $billions that directly compete with the artists and stock photo libraries that were used to train these art generators.

[stale2002]

> Also, nobody is currently suing (or particularly upset) over people making art on their home PCs

Nobody is suing because few people have the resources to sue anyone, yes, but people are absolutely upset about all the AI art that is now on the internet.

Much of which is entirely non commercial, in the same way that any other piece of online fan art is.

But hey sure, if your position is that almost all of the online AI art stuff is totally fine (it's mostly all non commercial), then great. You support almost all AI art.

So I guess that means that both fan art and AI art are basically the same anyway, using that same definition of non commercial, which was my entire point.

Also, it doesn't really matter if stable diffusion, or 1 or 2 other big companies go out of business at this point.

Their models are already available for anyone to use, and other people are training them even now.

A couple companies being sued doesn't stop any of this technology even a little bit, because lots of amazing models are available.

[ronsor]

There is also the fact they have driven themselves mad trying to "detect" or distinguish AI art, and now consistently attempt to tear each other down over claims of AI use.