[kindatrue]

"I really hope US cities head in this direction"

The US is headed on the path of autonomous vehicles as the solution. It's the perfect combination of things our society loves: 1) No new public investment. 2) Continuous, end-to-end air conditioning

[HEmanZ]

I suspect the US is going to get a super bifurcated urbanist result across cities in the next 20 years. Places like NYC, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, Portland, and San Francisco (maybe not these exact cities but you get the gist) are going to move strong towards European style urban infrastructure. It seems to be one topic that really does mobilize voters, especially younger educated voters, in these cities. It will in turn attract a lot more of these kinds of people, accelerating the change.

The rest of the US is just going to double down on sprawl.

[lotsoweiners]

Those cities you mentioned already have European style urban infrastructure. In my opinion the big difference is that the drivers in the European cities seemed crazier than their US counterparts.

[HEmanZ]

That’s interesting. I’m a born and raised American, but I lived in two different European countries (Oslo and Geneva) between 2014 and 2017. During that time I traveled all over Western Europe and the near east for fun and business, and besides 2020-21 I have vacationed in Europe once or twice per year when not living there. Old Soviet Europe drives pretty crazy, but other than that I have not encountered anywhere else in Europe with drivers as crazy as the US.

They have very different norms in Europe that Americans might confuse as crazy but are actually better habits IMO. E.g drivers in Florence and Rome followed few rules and basically drive by the “if it fits, it fits” manta. But they were always keenly aware of pedestrians and other drivers. They drive very light cars in streets where they can’t get above 15 mph. Even if they do get into more fender-benders, I’m not very concerned about a fiat hitting my car at 15mph. In short, their way of driving is safer and I feel much more comfortable around it.

Americans on the other hand seem to prefer deadly speeds in giant vehicles even in neighborhoods. My current neighborhood regularly sees F150s and King Ranches going 55+mph, on neighborhood streets. I saw a driver last year hit a dog they should have clearly seen and avoided because they were going about 45 mph and on their phone, they didn’t even slow down after they hit the dog. Americans regularly pretend pedestrians and obstacles don’t exist at all, and have way worse reaction times than what I saw living in Europe. Combined with the high speeds and heavy cars, driving is comfortable for the driver and terrifying for everyone else on and around the roads.

I also wouldn’t compare these American cities infrastructure to most European cities of the late 2010s. Excepting possibly NYC, which is sort of its own league in the US. Maybe they are comparable to the European cities of the 90s, but things have moved on a lot since then.

[mbs159]

>Those cities you mentioned already have European style urban infrastructure.

I hope you're joking. it's very rare to see a highway wider than 6 lanes in Europe, especially that runs through cities, whilst the aforementioned cities have a abundance of such monstrosities.

[twoWhlsGud]

Done properly (I know…) autonomous vehicles could be a godsend for cycling in the US. If vehicles behaved properly you wouldn't theoretically need cycling infrastructure at all – the dream of vehicular cycling would actually start working and you could share the road anywhere.

[beppuboy]

+100...I love driving and will miss it with autonomous cars but I like being able to ride my bike without being nearly killed in the city every week. Autonomous cars (assuming they're trained to deal with bikes) would be a massive benefit I'm keeping my fingers crossed for.

[trgn]

the aspirational future of AI-traffic is kei cars and vans puttering around. Hope to see it in my lifetime still.

[al_borland]

Autonomous vehicles will make traffic worse, not better. Now we won’t even need people in cars to create traffic.

[NegativeLatency]

3) A technical solution to a societal problem

[rangestransform]

I would definitely prefer end to end AC over cycling in >30c heat

[doctor_phil]

I don't get the American fixation of cars. Isn't public roads a mild form of communism?

[NegativeLatency]

Lots of money has been successfully spent on convincing Americans that car ownership directly makes them more free. Car == freedom

This is sorta true in part (in some places) because other options like walk/bike/bus/train have been so disinvested that in many places you really do need to own a car to get around with any level of dignity.

It does seem to be changing on larger US cities though, so I’m hopeful.

[ThunderSizzle]

Freedom of movement. Cars represent freedom of movement akin to a horse with a trailer, except you have an engine instead of a horse.

I dont think Americans care for the current road monopoly states have, or the monopolistic tolls and enforcement.

The idea of freedom of movement isn't really a European-centric ideal - its more uniquely American and derived from being a nation derived from those escaping injustices of Europe and searching freedom and liberty.

With the history of Europe being based in serfdom - peasants being forced to work their lord's land for protection - the idea of freedom of movement never really seemed to be of importance.

Those who deemed it important probably emigrated from Europe to America.

[milkytron]

I agree, but for those that truly value freedom, I would think that they would also value the freedom of choice.

Car dependent societies don't allow many choices, you are restricted to only choosing a car for transportation.

[pandaman]

"Freedom of choice" is literally that, a freedom to make a choice, nobody is restricting you from it. Having many choices to make is not a freedom, it's power.

[mbs159]

Car infrastructure taking up unnecessary parts of cities limits the freedom of transportation by other means, like walking or cycling.

[pandaman]

Homes do the same. In both cases, though, if you don't want people to build something you need to exercise power, not freedom. Freedom of choice does not entitle you to others not doing something.

[mbs159]

I disagree that it provides any freedom at all, since you are limited by roads. If certain roads are cut off by sabotage or other means, you lose your imaginary "freedom of movement".

Regarding it being an "American thing", Germany was the first country to build highways, and currently the highways there (Autobahn) don't even have a speed limit, so you could say that they provide more freedom of movement than the roads in the US.

[ThunderSizzle]

Every freedom has limitations. Just because there are limitations doesn't mean that the underlying principle doesn't exist. People have the freedom to move, even before the car, and well before the interstate highway system.

The Autobahn was constructed for a similar goal as of the Interstate highway system - to act as a transportation backbone for the military during conflict. The fact that it's grown to what it is today is because it was built with free money (for the cities and states building them) and it became one of the safest ways to travel long distances without having to spend a lot of money.

Regardless, there's a lot more freedom to a car than a politically charged public transit system tied to a social credit score or even economic ability to pay whatever arbitrary fare exists. While cars do cost money, they also tended to keep going with a lot of abuse, and aren't tied to how politicians think of you.

[mbs159]

Although I do agree that cars provide some freedom of transportation, they are still heavily regulated, are more difficult to fix yourself than ever before (good luck fixing the electronics in your new BMW in the middle of nowhere), and you have to register them, buy insurance, etc. just so you could drive a extremely limited set of public roads that could be closed down any minute for a variety of reasons. Or you could just get stuck in traffic, enjoying that sweet freedom of sitting in a metal can whilst those peasants drive past you on their bicycles or other, not-as-free, means of transportation.

Are cars cool? Absolutely. Are they some kind of freedom machines? As much as oil companies and car (excuse me - freedom machine) manufacturers would say otherwise, no.

[NegativeLatency]

Yeah or just like normal traffic where you're stuck behind a long line of other cars

[carlosjobim]

Imperialism rather.