[esafak]

It is not going to take off if it is not significantly better, and has browser support. WebP took off thanks to Chrome, while JPEG2000 floundered. If not native browser support, maybe the codec could be shipped by WASM or something?

The interesting diagram to me is the last one, for computational cost, which shows the 10x penalty of the ML-based codecs.

[geor9e]

The thing about ML models is the penalty is a function of parameters and precision. It sounds like the researchers cranked them to max to try to get the very best compression. Maybe later they will take that same model, and flatten layers and quantize the weights to can get it running 100x faster and see how well it still compresses. I feel like neural networks have a lot of potential in compression. Their whole job is finding patterns.

[dylan604]

Did JPEG2000 really flounder? If your concept of it being a consumer facing product as a direct replacement for JPEG, then I could see being unsuccessful in that respect. However, JPEG2000 has found its place in the professional side of things.

[esafak]

Yes, I do mean broad- rather than niche adoption. I myself used J2K to archive film scans.

One problem is that without broad adoption, support even in niche cases is precarious; the ecosystem is smaller. That makes the codec not safe for archiving, only for distribution.

The strongest use case I see for this is streaming video, where the demand for compression is highest.

[userbinator]

That makes the codec not safe for archiving, only for distribution.

Could you explain what you mean by "not safe for archiving"? The standard is published and there are multiple implementations, some of which are open-source. There is no danger of it being a proprietary format with no publicly available specification.

[dylan604]

Not the GP, but for archiving, you want to know that you'll be able to decode the files well into the future. If you adopt a format that's not well accepted and the code base gets dropped and not maintained so that in the future it is no longer able to be run on modern gear, your archive is worthless.

As a counter, J2K has been well established by the professional market even if your mom doesn't know anything about what it is. It has been standardized by the ISO, so it's not something that will be forgotten about. It's a good tool for the right job. It's also true that not all jobs will be the right ones for that tool

[esafak]

I was not thinking of J2K as being problematic for archiving but these new neural codecs. My point being that performance is only one of the criteria used to evaluate a codec.

[ufocia]

Royalty costs are often the other.

[sitkack]

For archiving, I'd recommend having a wasm decompressor along with some reference output. Could also ship an image viewer as an html file with all the code embedded.

[dylan604]

Why the need for all things to be browser based? Why introduce the performance hit for something that brings no compelling justification? What problem is this solution solving? Why can't things just be native workflows and not be shoveled into a browser?

[benreesman]

Not the parent but one imagines that WASM could be a good target for decompressing or otherwise decoding less-adopted formats/protocols because WASM is fairly broadly-adopted and seems to be at least holding steady if not growing as an executable format: it seems unlikely that WASM disappears in the foreseeable future.

Truly standard ANSI C along with a number of other implementation strategies (LLVM IR seems unlikely to be going anywhere) seem just as durable as WASM if not more, but there are applications where you might not want to need a C toolchain and WASM can be a fit there.

One example is IIUC some of the blockchain folks use WASM to do simultaneous rollout of iterations to consensus logic in distributed systems: everyone has to upgrade at the same time to stay part of the network.

[wizzwizz4]

Wasm is simple, well-defined, small enough that one person can implement the whole thing in a few weeks, and (unlike the JVM) is usable without its standard library (WASI).

LLVM isn't as simple: there's not really such thing as target-independent LLVM IR, there are lots of very specific keywords with subtle behavioural effects on the code, and it's hard to read. I think LLVM is the only full implementation of LLVM. (PNaCl was a partial reimplementation, but it's dead now.)

ANSI C is a very complicated language and very hard to implement correctly. Once Linux switches to another language or we stop using Linux, C will go the way of Fortran.

Part of archiving information has always been format shifting. Never think you can store information, forget about it for a thousand years (or even five), and have it available later.

[actionfromafar]

Huh, one more point for considering J2K for film scan archiving.

[dylan604]

it's well past the considering stage. J2K is used more than people think even if we're not using to spread cat memes across the interwebs. J2K is used in DCPs sent to movie theaters for digital projections. J2K is used as lossless masters for films. the Library of Congress uses it as well. this isn't even attempting to make an exhaustive list of use, but it's not something being looked into. it's being used every day

[actionfromafar]

Well, I meant for me personally. Currently using TIFF. :-)

[dylan604]

But that's like saying it's difficult to drive your Formula 1 car to work every day. It's not meant for that, so it's not the car's fault. It's a niche thing built to satisfy the requirements of a niche need. I would suggest this is "you're holding it wrong" type of situations that isn't laughable.

[yccs27]

There was absolutely an initiative to make J2K a widespread standard

[dylan604]

There was absolutely an initiative to make Esperanto a widespread language. But neither point has anything to do with how things actually are

[dinkumthinkum]

I think it is an interesting discussion, learning experience (no pun intended). I think this is more of a stop on a research project than a proposal; I could be wrong.

[ufocia]

Better or cheaper, e.g. AV1?