[greggsy]

Is anyone more knowledgeable able to interpret the paper beyond ‘brain waves wash toxins’?

Are they actually responsible for the observed activity, or do they merely trigger some ‘flushing’ mechanism inherent to the cells? Or, are the waves a result of that process?

[swores]

I can't find free access to the full paper, but here's the abstract (afraid I'm not knowledgeable enough to add to or explain any of it):

"The accumulation of metabolic waste is a leading cause of numerous neurological disorders, yet we still have only limited knowledge of how the brain performs self-cleansing. Here we demonstrate that neural networks synchronize individual action potentials to create large-amplitude, rhythmic and self-perpetuating ionic waves in the interstitial fluid of the brain. These waves are a plausible mechanism to explain the correlated potentiation of the glymphatic flow1,2 through the brain parenchyma. Chemogenetic flattening of these high-energy ionic waves largely impeded cerebrospinal fluid infiltration into and clearance of molecules from the brain parenchyma. Notably, synthesized waves generated through transcranial optogenetic stimulation substantially potentiated cerebrospinal fluid-to-interstitial fluid perfusion. Our study demonstrates that neurons serve as master organizers for brain clearance. This fundamental principle introduces a new theoretical framework for the functioning of macroscopic brain waves."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38418877/

[salawat]

>Chemogenetic flattening of these high-energy ionic waves largely impeded cerebrospinal fluid infiltration into and clearance of molecules from the brain parenchyma.

Sounds like unsync'd brain waves, (being awake) impedes cerebrospinal fluid flow through the brain.

When asleep, neurons sync their action potentials, acting like a ionized fluid pump, moving old dirty cerebrospinal fluid out, and allowing new, clean in.

Interestingly, when they synthesize that type of ionization using other means, they saw the same increase in fluid movement.

This is my best attempt at translating. Hopefully within 1-2 football fields. The author leaves choice of American or the rest of the world to the reader to decide.

[Staple_Diet]

As someone in this field (research field not football field) I'd say that is an excellent layman explanation.

[parpfish]

I wonder if these waves also help in “resetting” the distribution of ions among the CSF so neurons will continue to have the proper ion gradients for firing their action potentials?

[samstave]

I wonder if this state could be ultrasonically induced to have a "sleep helmet" which can calm and align rhythmic waves? and induce an artificial flush or "power nap"

--

Well, thats basically the trope of every Cybernetic design, with the connectors comming out the back of head/spine...

Like a continual wash which keeps you in this suspended hyper-aware, but calm, rested and focused mental state.

This is why cyborgs have such incredible reflexes.

[0xFEE1DEAD]

Have you seen the video on hn a couple of weeks ago about the scientist using ultrasound to halt the progression of Alzheimer’s and to treat addiction?

Most fascinating video I’ve seen in a long time.

Edit: If you haven’t seen it yet, I highly recommend checking it out https://youtu.be/7BGtVJ3lBdE

[randcraw]

IIRC, the goal of that effort is simply to violate the blood brain barrier, which may have therapeutic value only under very tightly managed circumstances since violating it likely will yield at least as many demerits as merits since the BBB is essential to keep the brain free of blood-borne toxins.

[samstave]

manipulating the blood-brain-barrier is exactly what ALL ssris and medicines affecting the brain do.... DMT, LSD, MDMA etc all deal in these molocules.

If we can create/prevent blood-brain-barrier-"Portals" as it were, via ultrasound - and do so like we do with the gamma knife but with sound waves, it would be more harmonious with our nature. (3/6/9 tesla rhythms and all that)

[samstave]

Thanks! Super interesting... however - I think our understanding of how to properly aim it, and make it resonant in the same way that mythical ancients a read to as have - We dont yet understand the frequencies of being.

[samstave]

Looking into this So I built out CyberKnife building at ECH in 2009...

and was just thinking about the vid you had, and how they are using the ultrasound intersections "at the blood brain barrier

Where exactly is this intersection occurring?

Is it poking a hole in something for the plaque to 'flow through' via the cereberal flush?

--

Ah I have my answer::

The transiant gap created by FUS will last a few hours...

So - here is where a few LLM ideas come to mind - as the gap allows for the flow of the enzymes through for a bit before they heal - what is the optimal location for placing the FUS pulses?

How many FUS pulses required to create the gap is unclear, as is exactly how long it takes for the enzyme flush - however, there is currently (mostly?) single point systems, but multi-point systems are being tested. What would be interesting to determine is if there could be a spatial pattern for placing the gaps, assuming you have a multi-point FUS system, imagine creating (N) FUS gaps simultaniously in a pattern which followed the natural flow of the enzyme flush - such that if the cereberal flush is flowing in a clockwise fashion - openening FUS gaps in accordance with the direction and timing of the enzyme flush's frequency. directed flow FUS animation.

It seems you dont have to explicitly open a gap with a FUS pulse - so can "massage" behavior such that you can direct flow? I guess only depending on the frequency with which you can aim and fire FUS pulses - but if you have multiple FUS sources? you can 'kite' the flow in...

which reinforces this: "In the context of Alzheimer’s disease, post-FUS tracer enhancement phenomena suggest the existence of a brain-wide perivenous fluid efflux pathway in humans4. This could potentially facilitate the drainage of harmful substances

I wonder what the energy consumption per pulse, how many pulses per gap, how many gaps per hour.

https://www.elcaminohealth.org/news/el-camino-hospital-purch...

---

But what would be really interesting is the marriage of a multi point FUS system layered on top of a cyberknife where as the cyberknife uses xrays to track the position of the prostate in order to determing the location of the point its 'knifing' - if you can massage points into position using FUS - maybe a multi-point FUS can hold a prostates target in position in sync with the cyberknifes 'knifing' and validation via xrays?

-- ala:

Focused Ultrasound (FUS) and the Blood-Brain Barrier (BBB): FUS has been shown to disrupt the BBB in a noninvasive, safe, and targeted manner1. The mechanical effects of FUS, namely cavitation, are thought to be the principle cause behind this BBB disruption1. This method of BBB disruption – FUS with microbubbles – has had very promising results1.

CyberKnife and Prostate Treatment: The CyberKnife System uses advanced technologies to track tumors anywhere in the body, while its unique robotic design keeps the radiation on target even while the tumor moves2. Before delivering the radiation beam, the CyberKnife System verifies the exact tumor position then adjusts the robot to precisely target the tumor2. This system is particularly effective for treating prostate cancer345.

Potential Combination of FUS and CyberKnife: In theory, a multi-point FUS system could potentially be used to “hold” a prostate target in position, working in sync with the CyberKnife’s tracking and ‘knifing’. This could potentially enhance the precision of the treatment, as the FUS system could help ensure the prostate remains in the optimal position for the CyberKnife treatment.

[brandensilva]

I wonder if this could help insomniacs. I had some pretty extreme burn out earlier this year that mentally made it so I couldn't sleep. I had to remove as much stress from life as I could and plan an aggressive routine of not working, relaxation, exercise, sleeping exactly on time and personal therapy with my wife to get my mind to shut down at night.

It is pretty grueling how bad it feels to not sleep so a cap like this would at least make it so the build up doesn't kill you from over collecting old fluid excessively.

[eschatology]

I was thinking if we could directly tap and pump fresh cerebrospinal fluid and eliminate sleep

[brandensilva]

It seems neat in theory but I imagine the brain having to operate an additional 8 hours a day might actually accelerate mental decline faster as we age given you would be using it 1/3 more but it is an interesting concept.

[samstave]

Or you just have a slow continuous flow, where the pumping is controlled by the heartbeat - meaning that whatever is pumping the BrainWash 9000(TM) is triggered by the impulses to the heart - however there is some monitoring system which also can slow or increase B9 as needed.

[SturgeonsLaw]

> Here we demonstrate that neural networks synchronize individual action potentials to create large-amplitude, rhythmic and self-perpetuating ionic waves in the interstitial fluid of the brain

This line is the money shot. An action potential is the variable electrical charge of a neuron, and they maintain that charge by containing a certain concentration of ions relative to the surrounding cerebrospinal fluid. This paper proposes that neurons synchonise their charge state, which forces ions to flow in or out of the neurons in bulk, the movement of these ions causing the cerebrospinal fluid to move around, clearing out the accumulated debris.

[niemandhier]

I’d expect that it’s probably not the ion movement but the global electric field, maybe even mechanical effects in the axons.

If you look at the Goldstein-Katz equations you see that the conductivities play an as important role as the concentrations.

Most of the voltage change is driven by changes in conductivities and not concentration changes, the ion movements across the membrane should be negligible.

Off course you have the free ions outside the cells than diffuse in a field gradient.

[walleeee]

*Goldman-(Hodgkin-)Katz equation

[gentleman11]

Do these wave of stimulation cause dreaming as a side effect?

[theaussiestew]

In another comment I talked about how I observed a phenomena similar to the one described where neuronal activations would create waves, I've quoted it here. I would summarize it as 3D waves of light, resulting in a spherical enamation that readjusts the physical substrate of the mind and body.

""

I tried to observe the phenomena yesterday again and couldn't observe it but it was very specifically this in the past: spherical orbs of white light expanding from a centre. There were many of these, and my perception was that the nature of this geometric expanding shape was healing. To describe it more clearly, many years ago I felt that the perfect geometric spherical nature of these expanding waves were designed to gently round off rough edges. To make an analogy, imagine kneading some play dough over and over again. When you use your hands to do so, every time your hands make contact with the play dough, the play dough changes shape slightly because of the contact between your hands and the play dough and it gets softer. Now apply this concept to the idea of energetic waves making contact and passing through the material substrate of the brain and the rest of the body (yes I observed the waves applying to more than just my mind). It was my physical and conscious perception that as the spherical waves emanated from some center, they gently readjusted the physical substrate that they passed through. And because there were so many of them in different spatial locations, this readjustment was incredibly refined.

[malux85]

Wouldn’t it be cool if we could periodically trigger waves like this to refresh the brain and maybe require less (or no) sleep!

I have no expertise in this area I’m just a dreamer :)

[_y5hn]

That's been in use for thousands of years already: yoga, pranayama and meditation.

There are courses one can take where one learns this, like Art of Living and any other that follows the same traditions.

Yes, there's research on that, and new studies should absolutely gain from this study. Not entirely sure you'll observe the same effect, that depends on meditator, but you can fall asleep during practice.

I have over a decade experience with it, and have also participated on a study on breathing exercises and epigenetic effects from that versus blind control.

[mattlondon]

I think the point of replacing sleep is to save time.

Replacing hours of sleep with hours of yogo or mediation seems like you are not gaining anything.

[gitaarik]

Meditation is a practice, you practice to keep your mind "clean" and don't clutter it with unnecessary thoughts, worries, etc. If you master this skill, you will require less sleep. And then you don't have to be sitting on the floor all the time, you can just live your life without cluttering your mind all the time. So it is ultimately more efficient than cluttering your mind all day and then needing lots of sleep. But it does take some initial practicing time before you reach that state of mind. But with all things, if you put some effort in beforehand, you can reap a lot of gain afterwards. Doing this practice for about 20/30 minutes every morning can already quickly bring great improvement to your daily life. If done right that is. It's easy to do it wrong also, and then it can not bring any benefit. Sometimes it's necessary to first work out some traumas before you start a serious meditation practice. Sometimes meditation actually helps you work out traumas. It all depends on the person and situation. For some people guided meditation works great, other people rather just sit in silence. It doesn't really matter, as long as you find something that works for you.

See it like exercising: you might think that spending time on exercising takes away time that you could spend on doing useful things. But it actually gives you better health, making you function better in your daily life. So it enables you to do things more efficiently. And you'll feel healthier, better, happier. So ultimately you gain from it.

[frereubu]

I think the point would be if you could replace ~8 hours of sleep with ~1-2 hours of meditation. I very much doubt it's a like-for-like replacement, but it might go some way to reducing the need for full sleep, e.g. 2 hours meditating + 2 hours sleeping = 8 hours sleeping.

[hahajk]

Is the idea that yoga/meditation are more efficient than sleep at redistributing the cerebral fluid? That would be very surprising.

[_y5hn]

What people really require for sleep vary a lot. But there are claims some people practicing very intensely, need only 4-6 hours of sleep at night. That's rarely a goal in itself though, as it's not a means to become more efficient or "save time", in a traditional, linear way of thinking at least.

However, the goal of meditation can be very diverse, since there are many different techniques, each with their own aims and side-effects. Generally, the main goal is often to calm the mind, make the body relax and let go of stress. There are many more benefits though, which you only realize when doing personal and experiencial practice over longer periods of time. It's not like the effects are the same for each person even, so it's more like a discovery process rather than do A, B, C techniques for X, Y, Z gains. However, there's a baseline of methods and general health, which is what it's usually used for. Very few people are suited to be munks or living in secluded communes like that. But it can be Very nice to be on a 1-2 week retreat now and then.

[sonofhans]

“You should meditate 10 minutes each day,” the teacher said. “But I can’t find 10 minutes every day!” said the student. “Then,” replied the teacher, “you should meditate for 60 minutes each day.”

[zadler]

Which exercises would you say trigger movement of cerebrospinal dluid in the brain?

[DonHopkins]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM5_dgKDsrc

[ArthurAardvark]

It's hilarious to me that these practices are laughed off, trivialized through memes and hyper-objectivity (science can't evaluate their value in a practical manner -> "Lulz hippie-dippie nonsense for ditzy/ungrounded women!!!!" -- Western dolt). Its insane considering their benefits...that are of course tragically perfect for those who would never participate

Of course that's a huge generality, I'd say it may be 1 out of 5 people like that in the US, but its the fact that it is not constrained to any particular demographic/background.

[dotnet00]

I've seen actual psychiatrists suggesting meditation or yoga as additional ways to help with certain issues (eg anxiety) along with medicine, and the benefits of say, just conscious, controlled breathing as is involved in both are obvious to anyone who has a temper.

I wouldn't be surprised if the idea that it's completely useless because it can't be scientifically observed in a traditional sense is highly correlated with people who think that mental health issues aren't real in general.

[hombre_fatal]

It's dismissed like any other woo woo bullshit: strong claims, no evidence.

Where's the evidence that yoga and meditation accomplish the effects of sleep and how strong is it?

[_y5hn]

There are studies on this, and I see they've been updated a bit. It doesn't seem to replace sleep due to Delta-waves during deep sleep, but can be used over time to maybe reduce the need for sleep. Enough sleep is of course important for clarity of mind and for releasing toxins and stress. In the West we often suffer from chronic sleep-deprivation, so meditation may help in that as well as ensuring enough rest in order to recuperate.

https://www.artofliving.org/us-en/meditation/sleep/meditatio...

You don't really need studies for this when you can have experiential evidence through own practices, which is much more important for an individual than external studies.

[vasco]

For companies it'd be a dream. 1/4 more awake time is 1/4 more time to buy stuff and watch content and ads. Or work longer hours. Gonna go back to sleep now.

[Dylan16807]

Sounds like a win-win.

Let's say my discretionary spending is 30% of my income, it goes up by a third, and I need to work 10% longer hours. Okay, so I adjust to a 44 hour work week and I get an extra 30+ hours of free time? Great!

[kyleyeats]

Definitely get some sleep. Your post suggests you're getting less than five hours a night.

[samstave]

the immediate use doesnt have to buy more shit.

it could be used in endurance/focused events. high stress relief, traumatic brain injury - like immediate induce afte cte event in foot ball

head trauma in car accident

ODs etc...

-

When I was a baby, and I would get ill, my mom would calm me and put me to sleep - and I would sleep for an extended period and my mom would say that I would wake up fully well.

If this could be induced in infants going through trauma's such as a surgery, where inducing natural brain-flush instead of pumping a tiny body full of "medicine" this might be great for their long term mental development outside of having medicines in them when growing extremely fast.

[d1sxeyes]

Dreamers have no problems here :)

[barkingcat]

the trigger could be like a sequence of flashes or certain pulsing of sound frequencies, it'd be like hacking the nervous system via unsanitized inputs

[foota]

Have you read Snow Crash?

[gitaarik]

Meditation?

[MrDrDr]

The paper shows a correlation between the observed ‘brain waves’ and the ‘toxin removal’. From the abstract: ‘These waves are a plausible mechanism to explain the correlated potentiation of the glymphatic flow through the brain parenchyma’. I think the main objective of this paper is to justify more funding to explore this phenomenon, to establish causation (beyond correlation).