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by wahnfrieden 828 days ago
Irrelevant
2 comments

The only reason Israel was founded were it was, can only be justfied by its first nations like connection to the chosen territory. It was not like Britain was lacking other colonies, protectorates, and mandates to choose from for the Jewish people at the given time.
Indeed several other locations such as Uganda were considered and were leading candidates beforehand. It originated as a colonial project, not a "land-back" initiative.

> Herzl approached Britain because, he said, it was "the first to recognize the need for colonial expansion." According to him, "the idea of Zionism, which is a colonial idea, should be easily and quickly understood in England.38 In 1902 Herzl approached Cecil Rhodes, who had recently colonized the territory of the Shona people as Rho- desia. "You are being invited to help make history," he said in a letter to Rhodes. "It doesn't involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor; not Englishmen, but Jews. How, then, do I happen to turn to you since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial.

> Ronald Stort, The Memoirs of Sir Ronald Storr (New York: G.P. Putnams, 1937), 364. Stort, the first Briitish military Governor of Jerusalem Sir Ronald Storr described Zionist ambitions for Palestine as the creation of "a little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism."

This comment makes it sound like the formation of Israel in the chosen territory was more or less random. Uganda was not chosen for a reason, don’t you think? Are you trying to say that the millenial history of the Jews has nothing to do with the chosen territory?
The history is why jews wanted that specific land for Isreal but the US and Britain didn't enter WW2 to help jews so it's not that much of a stretch for them to support territory for jews that isn't their first choice. It's not like the rest of europe liked jews either, there's a reason jews disproportionately died from _poland_; the other european countries already killed many of the jews within their borders. Even some of the Allied countries exported jews to the Axis when hitler asked them to.

Britain even wanted to avoid Isreal's current location [1] namely because jews and palestines have never gotten along.

As well as US and Britain both but an embargo of arms to isreal prior/during the 1948 war to appease the Arab states. Quite a different response than the current UA one where US/Britain have a vested interest in UA winning so they're a lot of support while in 1948 they'd prefer the Arabs winning.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939

I've wondered a few times if Uganda had been chosen instead, if Idi Amin ever would have rose to power...
Seems pretty relevant.
It is irrelevant to the conditions of the time which the Nakba was carried out, and irrelevant to the topic:

>If 2 families solely inhabited (owned) an island, since pre-history, and Family 1 sells the entire island to newcomers, while Family 2 takes no part in the deal or its approval, and does not cede their land to the purchase, then any court in the land will, quite rightly, hear Family 2's case that they are still the owner of their regions of the island.

Which describes the Balfour Declaration if Family 2 accounted for over 90% of the territory.

The current Likud party also recognizes their claim to the territory "from the river to the sea" does not involve the will of its other residents, as in the Family 1 & 2 story:

> Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

> It is irrelevant to the conditions of the time which the Nakba was carried out

Why is that the relevant time?

If somehow native Americans got together and took back Oklahoma, would white Americans have any basis to complain? I would say no.

You’re saying Palestinians stole the land and deserved losing it
> accounted for over 90% of the territory.

So in this case the Family 2 in Canada would be the Canadian people I would assume? It is always a question of how far back you go . . .

You’re suggesting the 90% native Palestinian population previously stole the land
It is possible to have two thoughts in the head at the same time.

The Palestinians living in this geographical area have a connection based on the history of their families living in the area. The Jewish people have a connection to the area based on the fact that most of their culture was founded in the area, but were later driven out as consequence of Roman and Byzantine actions – wars, enslavement, expulsions etc. This of course is the root of the whole conflict (with the additional pressure from surrounding hostile nations).

From what you have written it sounds like you mean that the Jewish people have no connection to this area. You also put words in my mouth that I have not said: "You’re suggesting the 90% native Palestinian population previously stole the land"

This is a difficult conflict to solve because both sides have valid arguments. It doesn't help to pretend one side doesn't have any valid arguments at all.

I don't think the root of the problem is that. There are currently 10-12 million people with nowhere else to go. That's the root of the conflict. Most people don't care enough about "where" to get shot over it. They just want to raise their families in peace and Israel happens to be where politics landed them. Historically as refugees, and today as having been born there or escaping persecution or discrimination, or in seeking opportunity. Just like everywhere else in the world. The conflict is that a handful of assholes are set on war as a way of corporate profiteering on one side, or as an attack on Western ideology on the other. Everyone else just wants ANYWHERE to go live in peace. And no other country is going to let them move to there so they are staying put, and fighting, because they have to.