[geoffmunn]

People (usually installers) also get hung up on having the correct angle for stationary panels. In winter the solar gain difference on 'correctly' angled panels vs just having them flat on the roof is basically zero, and in summer you should have excess solar gain anyway so again it doesn't matter.

And even if you're losing a small amount due to an inefficient angle, just get more panels!

[Retric]

On a roof it's not worth it, you can even install panels facing the wrong way and get useful power out of em compared to retail electricity rates.

However, at grid scale a few percent difference in cost or output can have dramatic impact on profitability so there's a lot of seemingly trivial optimizations going on. Some instills go so far as to aim some non tracking panels slightly to the east or west because slightly more valuable kwh beats slightly more kwh.

[llm_trw]

At grid scale it doesn't matter either because most installation are saturated anyway. The periods where they care about are the ramp up to noon and the ramp down till sunset, if you can keep the installation producing at it's stated capacity for as long as possible you make a killing, middle of the day power often costs nothing or has a negative price.

People think renewables are efficient in some way. They aren't. It's literally the most wasteful way to produce power because it doesn't get here when we need it and grid scale storage is orders of magnitude more expensive than production.

[Retric]

It's not an orders of magnitude difference anymore. Grid scale energy storage costs about the same amount as nuclear power per KWh right now with the added benefit it doesn't need to operate 24/7 or massive subsidies to break even. Though only if they can be charged with ultra cheap solar power.

Which is why so many grid scale solar installs come with enough batteries to store ~50% of daily output. It's not about nighttime power it's about reducing demand for peaker power plants. Basically combined cycle natural gas operates at ~64% efficiency assuming long term operation, but open cycle has much lower efficiency and thus much higher costs.

[llm_trw]

> Grid scale energy storage costs about the same amount as nuclear power per KWh right now

[[Citation needed]]

[Retric]

How about you first.

> grid scale storage is orders of magnitude more expensive than production.

[[Citation needed]]

PS: I have little interest in looking for citations when you can do your own research using 2024 data.

[llm_trw]

If you can't back up your claims it's fine. No need to be so unpleasant about it.

[throwitaway222]

I think in the next ten years we're going to see solar farms "saving" power and selling it at night.

[close04]

We're already seeing it today but the "saving" part is still expensive. What we'll hopefully see in 10 years is this storage getting substantially cheaper, maybe even cheap enough that it's standard for any PV installation while still being competitive with the alternatives.

[fragmede]

Vertical seems to be gaining some traction.

https://undecidedmf.com/have-we-been-doing-solar-wrong-all-a...

[stephen_g]

You'll still get more output for the same amount of panels when they're tilted in most places.

This guy did some interesting real-world testing in a bunch of different circumstances - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AVO1IyfA9M

[virtue3]

The vertical panels are bifacial so they get some of the light being reflected from the other side. This is a huge boost to their productivity.

The other major advantage here is that you can use them with farming and actually do something with the space.

In addition areas where it snows sees a dramatic uptick in solar power because of the reflection of the snow and not needing to brush the panels off.

vertical panel layouts really open up a LOT of options that were not available before. (using them as fences, putting them on sun facing walls of homes spaced off and letting the pass through sunlight hit the other side). There's a lot of possibilities here).

[beAbU]

The benefit of vertical is that it produces a duck-curve. The normal cosine curve with a peak at noon is basically the inverse of grid-scale demand, which necessitates grid-scale storage.

So vertical makes a lot of sense on large scale solar farms I think, even more so when you consider the land can be better utilised.

On domestic scale, where you can easier shift your load to match your production AND you might already have a roof with the right front and pitch, normal pitched north/south facing installations might make more sense.

[happytiger]

Works really well in snow.

[hagbard_c]

The "correct" tilt in the more northern and southern regions as well in higher places is "enough so the snow slides off the panels". I built a barn with a roof at the "correct" 36° angle specifically so that the panels - 36x400W - both produce the maximum amount during the summer months as well as shed snow without the need for manual intervention.

[gonesilent]

So that's about a 8/12 roof pitch ish.

[hagbard_c]

8.7/12 to be somewhat more exact, i.e. ~9/12 or 73%.

[potatochup]

Do flat panels need regular cleaning though? I'm in a rainy location and was told to always have at least some tilt so that you don't have to clean them as frequently

[londons_explore]

My flat panels lose about half their electrical output if I don't clean them for a year.

They end up covered in moss and mud.

[darkwater]

Wow. I have panel for 3 years now, never cleaned them actively (even if the installers offered me the service for a nice monthly fee), and never noticed anything like that. Well, let's wait 1-2 months to see if it's still the case, at least (April/May is the best month as far as production is concerned)

[londons_explore]

They're super easy to clean if you can get to them. Just 30 seconds with a regular household mop and they're shining again.

I'd recommend doing it at night, because I got a nasty zap off mine when presumably some of the mopping water got into the electrics and came up the metal mop pole .. (the electrics are all supposedly fully waterproof, but I guess on my 10+ year old panels stuff has degraded)

[darkwater]

They are on the roof, it's a two stores house, I think I will never be able or willing to do it personally :/

[sunshinesnacks]

You are correct. It’s especially true with a raised frame on the edge of the panels.

[myself248]

Having them flat on the wall is even better. You lose production in the summer when you'd usually have excess power anyway, and you gain snow-shedding in the winter, which can be tremendously important.

[jvanderbot]

The exterior of the house you mean?

[megaman821]

A solar fence would work if you could get your neighbors on board.

[mattmaroon]

What if I put these solar panels in the basement…

[xattt]

You'll be able to turn on the basement lights to have infinite electricity.

[jvanderbot]

I had a visual of walls built for the purpose of hanging vertical solar panels. Sure, didn't make much sense but I was just being clear.

[myself248]

So, funny you should say that...

https://electrek.co/2023/12/01/switzerland-put-vertical-sola...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AVO1IyfA9M

https://covico-energy.be/solarfence/

[sidewndr46]

How would you have "excess gain" ?

[geoffmunn]

If you are generating more power than your batteries can store, or you can use, then this is excess gain.

If you're selling it back to the power company then this might not be a problem unless you also have resell limits.