[rbanffy]

There is the legal - armed resistance to an occupation is legal - and there is moral - armed resistance attacking unarmed civilians is never morally right.

Settling occupied territory is neither legal, nor moral. Bombing hospitals is both illegal and immoral, as so many other things the IDF has been doing for the past months. Then there are the crimes committed against Palestinians over the past 80 or so years - it's not because the government is different that your ownership rights can be ignored.

This becomes worse when the governing political parties in question, Hamas and Likud, have charters that exclude the possibility of peaceful coexistence.

[incognos]

FWIW, Hamas's charter states that it's issue is with the Zionist Project and not Jews. They specifically speak about coexistence, albeit in a single entity called Palestine. There is not language to exclude other ethnicities or religions, only to remove the colonialist movement referred to as Zionism - which is not Judaism.

[rbanffy]

> FWIW, Hamas's charter states that it's issue is with the Zionist Project and not Jews.

Oh yes! Still, that's an untenable position. Israel was created so that all Jews could have a state of their own because of the suffering inflicted upon them. There really is no going back on that.

For me, a single democratic and secular state, with a legal framework that protects everybody's rights equally and fairly would be the best possible solution, but that would be a multi-generation effort (about 80 years too late, BTW).

[incognos]

FWIW, Palestine was a country made up of multiple ethnicities and religions. The official languages were Arabic, English and Hebrew. Jews made up 1.7% of the total population at the time. More and more of them were arriving from Europe to live there.

What ruined everything was the Zionist project, which funded land purchases for farms and then only allowed Jews to work on those farms. Essentially, excluding the majority muslim and christian population from an equal opportunity to work.

These exclusionary measure created tension which resulted in the armed and terroristic attacks by the Zionist groups the Stern Gang and Irgun. (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Stern-Gang)

So yes, they could have lived in peace and were living in peace, but Zionism...

[incognos]

But yet, a single democratic secular state is something that is in the hands of the occupier and their supporters. The Palestinian Authority agreed to the Oslo Accords in 1993 to create a 2 state solution - why has Israel and the USA dragged their feet? Israel has constantly and consistently broken the terms of this agreement without repercussion. We would not be in this situation now if this was enforced then.

Let the pot boil long enough, it will overflow.

[gizmo]

The status quo is already effectively a single-state solution. Israel is the only party with an army, the only party that can elect politicians, the only party with airports and a harbor, and a functioning economy. Israel also has almost total control over Golan, West Bank and Gaza. Why would Israel award citizenship and the right to vote to the oppressed minority?

If the majority between the river and the sea wanted a pluralistic, democratic and secular state it would have happened a long time ago. The status quo is what the people of Israel want (revealed preference by their votes). And Palestinians don't get a vote.

[rbanffy]

Gaza had an airport until 2005 or so, but it was bombed.

Gaza also has a political system - Hamas was elected, same as Likud. I'd say it's probably not working right now, for obvious reasons.

> The status quo is what the people of Israel want (revealed preference by their votes). And Palestinians don't get a vote.

Politics is rarely that clear-cut. The electorate was shaped by their environment and rarely sees what has been painted as impossible.

[runarberg]

This is a gross simplification. Both Hamas and the Palestinian Authority have tried to hold elections, last time was in 2021. The Palestinian Authority actually held local elections in the West Bank that year. However being occupied does not make elections easy. In 2021 in particular the national elections fell through because Israel didn’t allow Palestinians in occupied East Jerusalem to participate. Hamas wanted to hold the election despite that, but the Palestinian Authority cancelled the elections.

Hamas was elected almost two decades ago, and Palestinians in Gaza have been occupied ever since by Israel. Yes, they do have a political system, but said political system is not democratically driven. It is driven by the Israeli occupying forces, in ultimate control by Israeli voters. Both the military administration, Israeli politicians, and Israeli voters show no desire to change this.