[gataca]

Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas, the same people who claimed 500 people died in a hospital Israel bombed but when it was revealed their own rocket bombed it the casualty numbers dropped 10-fold, war isn’t arithmetic.

The United States killed many more Japanese civilians than American civilians who died during the war, that doesn’t make them right. Hamas has miles of tunnels to provide cover for their rapists but doesn’t allow civilians to shelter, it’s tragic that Hamas is killing its own people this way but Israel should continue until Hamas is defeated like Germany was.

[YavuzKrgl]

It turned out that the footage presented by israel as "a rocket fired by the Islamic Jihad fell on the hospital" was a lie.[0]

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Qp8hVg9X0

[gryzzly]

TRT is a Turkish public broadcast service. Erdogan openly supports Hamas.

[incognos]

For the record, it was debunked that it was a Hamas rocket as none of them had that potential yield and still do not. The ordinance for that explosion only had one provenance: the United States.

[jay-barronville]

I asked them to source their claim [0]. Let’s see if they can do it.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39628938

[jay-barronville]

> Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas […]

This is an unserious argument.

1. The numbers come from Gaza’s Ministry of Health, which is indeed “controlled” by Hamas since Hamas is their governing entity.

2. The Ministry has no verifiable history of being wrong on the civilian casualty numbers. In fact, it’s quite the opposite: The Ministry’s numbers have held up to scrutiny in ALL of the previous wars (including scrutiny from Israel) [0].

3. The Biden Administration has corroborated the numbers.

4. Israel hasn’t denied the numbers. In fact, in one report from the IDF a couple months ago, they corroborated the Ministry’s numbers at the time.

5. The same silly argument could be made to dismiss just about anything coming from Israel given their documented history of lying and even manipulating our (American) media, from lies about beheaded babies [1] to pushing propaganda via U.S. media outlets like the New York Times [2].

> The United States killed many more Japanese civilians than American civilians who died during the war, that doesn’t make them right. […]

This is just a whataboutism and another unserious argument.

One evil act doesn’t justify another evil act. This is as serious of an argument as someone trying to justify slavery in 2024 by pointing to America’s history with slavery.

[0]: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-mini...

[1]: https://theintercept.com/2023/12/14/israel-biden-beheaded-ba...

[2]: https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schw...

[gataca]

> The Ministry has no verifiable history of being wrong on the civilian casualty numbers

This is laughable. They claimed that Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people that the Palestinians themselves bombed. You are either hopelessly biased and unserious or uninformed.

[dang]

I'm afraid you broke the site guidelines repeatedly and very badly in this thread. That's not ok. You're welcome to make your substantive points while respecting HN's rules, and indeed they will become more persuasive if you do so. But please, no more snark, name-calling, personal attacks, or flamewar posts—no matter how right you are or feel you are, and no matter how divisive the topic.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

[jay-barronville]

> They claimed that Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people that the Palestinians themselves bombed.

Please source your claim as I did mine.

[gataca]

Here you go:

"However, the sound preceding the explosion, the fireball that accompanied it, the size of the resulting crater, the type of splatter adjoining it, and the type and pattern of fragmentation visible around the crater are all consistent with the impact of a rocket.

Evidence available to Human Rights Watch makes the possibility of a large air-dropped bomb, such as those Israel has used extensively in Gaza, highly unlikely."

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17...

[Qem]

> They claimed that Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people

The claims appear to be founded: https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/israeli-disi...

[gataca]

Even Human Rights Watch (anti-israel propaganda outlet at this point) has said it was a Palestinian rocket:

"However, the sound preceding the explosion, the fireball that accompanied it, the size of the resulting crater, the type of splatter adjoining it, and the type and pattern of fragmentation visible around the crater are all consistent with the impact of a rocket.

Evidence available to Human Rights Watch makes the possibility of a large air-dropped bomb, such as those Israel has used extensively in Gaza, highly unlikely."

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17...

[GordonS]

> Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas

The UN and Lancet [0] believe the numbers are credible. Let's not forget there are likely 10k+ civilians still burried under rubble too.

> Hamas has miles of tunnels to provide cover for their rapists

Come on, you are not commenting in good faith. There is zero credible evidence that any rape took place, Hamas have staunchly denied it, and from what returning hostages have said it seems incredibly unlikely. There is however an abundance of evidence that Israel is trying to use rape as attrocity propaganda.

> it’s tragic that Hamas is killing its own people this way

This is absolutely absurd - it's like telling a domestic violence victim it's their own fault.

[0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

[reducesuffering]

What happened to “believe women?”

You think in a sudden 1143 person civilian homicidal attack, going door to door, no rape happened?

“UN team says rape, gang rape likely occurred during Hamas attack on Israel”

UN: “The mission team received clear and convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children during their time in captivity.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-team-says-rape-...

https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploa...

[GordonS]

> What happened to “believe women?”

And where are the women whom we should believe?

> You think in a sudden 1143 person civilian homicidal attack, going door to door, no rape happened

Firstly, the latest figure from Israel is that 695 Israeli civilians were killed, with the rest being security forces. Of those 695, many were armed settlers.

Secondly, the fact you assume rape did occur, especially in the total absence of any evidence, is bizarre, and suggests you may have some deeply-seated biases against Palestinians and/or Muslims.

As I explained in another comment here [0], the UN report is a farce insisted upon by Israel to aid in laundering their lurid attrocity propaganda. The report is not the result of an investigation, it simply regurgitates what Israel presented to Pramila Patten. From the report:

> As a result of the aforementioned challenges, it must be noted that the information gathered by the mission team was in a large part sourced from Israeli national institutions. This is due to the absence of United Nations entities operating in Israel, as well as the lack of cooperation by the State of Israel with relevant United Nations bodies with an investigative mandate

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=GordonS#39629197

[incognos]

Where is your outrage for the ongoing rapes prior to october 7th and continuing to this day.

(https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-isra...)

[reducesuffering]

I abhor any rapes perpetuated against humans of any kind. Why are you deflecting my correction that GP’s “There is zero credible evidence that any rape took place” is wrong?

[incognos]

https://thegrayzone.com/2024/03/07/media-concocts-un-hamas-r...

“In the medicolegal assessment of available photos and videos, no tangible indications of rape could be identified,” the report concluded.

[gryzzly]

"The Grayzone is an American fringe,[7] far-left[19] news website and blog,[23] founded and edited by American journalist Max Blumenthal"

"It is known for its negative coverage of American foreign policy,[1][4] misleading reporting,[25][26] and sympathetic coverage of authoritarian regimes."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grayzone

Excellent sources!