[_fat_santa]

The key difference I see in Apple's app store business is that it's a monopolistic marketplace model. If Apple allowed an alternative to the app store then this wouldn't be an issue. Take Microsoft and Windows as an example, they have the Microsoft store which operates as a marketplace with rules but they don't get the same scrutiny because there are alternatives. Don't like what MS is doing with their app store? Fine just release the binary yourself.

With Apple though, the bring it on themselves by having a monopolistic marketplace. Since they are the sole gatekeeper to getting apps on the iDevices, there is no alternative like there is in the MS ecosystem. Apple could end all scrutiny tomorrow if they allowed a way to install apps on iDevices that bypassed the app store and Epic would have no case.

[gopher_space]

> Don't like what MS is doing with their app store? Fine just release the binary yourself.

Whip up a small windows binary and send it to your mom. See if she can run it without any help from you. MS is doing the same thing from a different angle.

[abhinavk]

* Signed .exe works but has a cost.

* Unsigned .exe gets a security prompt to Run/Don't Run for the first time.

* MSI has an installation wizard.

* MSIX has a simple Install prompt like PWAs.

[donmcronald]

Are you saying I can distribute an unsigned MSI or MSIX without a SmartScreen warning? Are you sure about that? Others are saying the same thing, but I didn't think that was possible.

Can someone explain it you happen to know?

[pompino]

Not even close. MS is allowing the end user alternate means of installing software. Apple is trying to rob each iOS developer of 30% of their sales.

[nottorp]

Eh, you create a msi including all dependencies with tools provided to you by Microsoft free of charge and without restrictions. And mom gets a start menu icon.

Can you do the same on iOS?

[gopher_space]

If I don't think of cost as a fundamental issue, what differences would I see between either approach? They're both barriers to my intent and I'm not on board with the reasoning behind erecting those barriers.

[nottorp]

You missed the "without restrictions" part. You do not need to get the msi approved by Microsoft to distribute it.

[gopher_space]

It's an extra step in the process I only need to do on Windows, and the rationale behind it solely benefits Microsoft.

I'm not comparing Microsoft to Apple, I'm judging both of them against my intentions. Both companies throw up barriers to interfacing with their systems.

[askonomm]

But as of iOS 17.4 they do allow alternative app stores in EU.

[screamingninja]

Here are some articles that specifically discuss what is wrong with Apple's approach in allowing alternative app stores.

https://pluralistic.net/2024/02/06/spoil-the-bunch/

https://proton.me/blog/apple-dma-compliance-plan-trap

> Introducing the Core Technology Fee (CTF), a junk fee that serves no purpose other than trapping popular apps in Apple’s current shakedown scheme. By charging a €.50 fee for each install after the first 1 million, Apple effectively uses a popular app’s scale against it to prevent it from using an alternative payment system or app store.

> If you decide to use anything other than Apple’s in-app purchase system, you’re forced to display a “scare screen” designed by Apple, which you cannot modify.

> Once you choose which policy you want to implement — the current App Store policy or Apple’s proposed new policy — your decision is permanent. So if you decide to take the risk of trying out alternative payments and it ends up working worse for your business, Apple doesn’t allow you to go back and instead traps you permanently.

[OCASMv2]

The CTF is the exact same thing as the Runtime Fee that Unity tried to force on devs last year. Caused a massive outroar that got Unity to reverse course and sack the CEO.

[lozenge]

You still need a developer account to notarise apps that are published on alternative app stores. Plus you need to agree to pay Apple the Core Technology Fee.

[codingcodingboy]

Why didn't the EU force the removal of those requirements? Apple will keep playing games to make alternative stores uncompetitive and keep away unwanted developers.

[Jensson]

I think 8 was intended to stop that sort of thing, but maybe Apple thinks it doesn't apply?

8. The gatekeeper shall not require business users or end users to subscribe to, or register with, any further core platform services, as a condition for being able to use, access, sign up for or registering with any of that gatekeeper’s core platform services listed pursuant to that Article.

[codingcodingboy]

You are probably right, and now I wonder if this doesn't also apply to the standard Apple developer program.

I have not read the DMA but in the gatekeeper section of the official website the Core platform services listed are AppStore, iOS and Safari. Let's suppose that you single out iOs, why should I sign up something about AppStore to develop apps?

[jsnell]

DMA enforcement only started today. Until today, all these plans were just words on a paper. The EC will only look at the real state of the world now that enforcement has started, and make their enforcement decisions based on that and the public feedback. They aren't giving any kind of pre-approvals or pre-denials to the plans.

(If they were pre-evaluating plans, the optimal play for the gatekeepers would be to propose something totally unreasonable, and then negotiate it to something that's mostly unreasonable but just barely acceptable to the EC. That would be a bad outcome for the EC. So from a game theory perspective, they're better of making the companies guess at what will be acceptable rather than negotiating, since the companies will want to be conservative.)

[threeseed]

Because it's still Apple's platform.

And they have a right to prevent apps that harm the integrity of the overall platform which is what notarisation is designed to prevent.

Also companies have always charged a fee for using their SDKs. Even today Epic does this i.e. 12%.

[Phrodo_00]

> Because it's still Apple's platform.

It's not Apple's devices, though.

[freedomben]

As long as Apple has a higher level of access to the device than the user does, it's still Apple's device. They've just done a great job at making the user think they own it.

[whazor]

No, you need an Apple developer account to set up an alternative marketplace.

[layer8]

Which they are preventing Epic from creating because it requires an Apple developer account.

[borland]

In iOS 17.4 Apple allows you to apply to create an alternative store. Apple can still deny your request and kill your alternative store, and this is exactly what happened.

Epic opened a developer account under their european subsidiary company, which applied for this, and Apple just banned that account, so Epic can't create a store. Perhaps if someone else (Google, Microsoft, Meta) made a store, Epic might be able to upload apps to that store, but because in the Apple world everything traces back to the developer accounts, I'm pretty sure that would be blocked by Apple as well.

As much as it might seem like Tim Sweeney was exaggerating about Apple's DMA "compliance" changes being hot garbage, a horror show, and malicious compliance -- he really wasn't. Apple are in full on villain mode here.

The part that doesn't make sense, is why Apple are choosing to be such dicks about everything, when the EU is already breathing down their necks. They're inviting more and harsher regulation upon themselves and making the rest of the world hate them in the process.

[threeseed]

Epic has a long history of breaking the terms of contracts they are sign.

Most companies won't deal with actors who continually do this.

[int_19h]

Most companies don't own market-dominant platforms so locked down that large economic blocks pass special legislation to address the matter.

[nottorp]

They don't really. Money matters aside, the apps still need to be approved by Apple. They could drop all fees and it would still mean they don't allow alternatives.

[1over137]

Do you still need an AppleID to use these alternative stores?