Spotify does seem to be in an interesting position where it gets to piggyback on Apple's whole infrastructure and ecosystem without paying Apple anything. That should count for something...
I find this argument kind of ridiculous - yes, access to Apple's APIs does bring value to its app developers, but crucially, the app developers increase the value proposition of Apple's product by being available on the platform.
It would be just as fair in this case to say that Apple should be paying Spotify for making their app available on the App Store.
Luckily, by custom there is another solution - the platform providers charge nothing and let their customers decide what software to use, and the developers targeting the platform do not charge for developing their software for the platform. As it has worked forever on Windows, Linux, Android, MacOS, etc.
This is a weird argument. Apple released a functionally comparable product to Spotify with about $2b of investment in Beats. Only one company on the planet has been able to create a functionally comparable product to iPhone, and that’s stretching the definition and required huge expense.
It’s pretty clear that Spotify’s value add to Apple is tiny while the reverse is much larger.
Spotify wouldn’t have a business in the counter-factual world where they were never allowed in App Store, while Apple Music would clearly exist. Their business model innovation was fairly limited; streaming music services began in the late 90s.
It's also not just APIs. I would argue more importantly, Apple has cultivated a platform with the most affluent users. Otherwise Spotify wouldn't care if they were on the minority platform in the EU. Apple's argument is the work they have done to get high paying users on the iOS platform is worth something to people who want to sell to that group.
It's a great question. Clear lines are always hard, but something has differentiated the two. And it may be less about what Apple has done, and more that Google is not a very good product company.
IMO, having used both platforms, Apple hardware and ecosystem/platform works better for me. /shrug
> I find this argument kind of ridiculous - yes, access to Apple's APIs does bring value to its app developers, but crucially, the app developers increase the value proposition of Apple's product by being available on the platform.
And yet, in retail, it's common for product brands to pay for shelf space. There's a recognition that the place users are, is worth paying to be in.
Meanwhile, Steam shows what just the storefront part of such a platform should cost a developer, and interestingly, that open market price is higher than Apple's ask.
I find this argument kind of ridiculous - yes, app developers (such as Spotify) bring value proposition to Apple's products by being available on the platform. But, apps (such as Spotify) probably wouldn't exist and wouldn't have access to the immense value of an App Store and its tooling if Apple didn't exist.
Luckily, by custom there is another solution - respect each other boundaries and stop acting like whiny little children.
> Luckily, by custom there is another solution - respect each other boundaries and stop acting like whiny little children.
So where does the Apple Music subscription entering the market to compete with Spotify (which came first), without having to pay itself 30%, nor being prevented from advertising how to subscribe in the first place, fit in to that narrative?
For any interesting market that props up on the App Store, Apple is free to: start by extracting 30% from everything in said market; then, develop its own competing product at a technical advantage (with access to private APIs) and a comercial advantage (avoiding said 30% fees); and, finally, bundle and market the shit out of their own thing, all the while restricting other's marketing (with steering and MFN rules).
And according to some people, this is all perfectly fine behaviour, by Apple standards.
As Matwood pointed out in a sibling comment, the real value of being on the App Store is the ecosystem of highly affluent consumers that Apple has cultivated.
Which has would be worthless without apps like Spotify. Do you also think that Apple is entitled to 30% of anything bought with their browser? Should Microsoft be entitled to the same on windows and their browser?
If the Appstore is so good Apple should not be worried about competition by allowing side loading or alternative Appstores.
You could flip that argument around and say that Spotify might have been worthless without the App Store to grow their userbase. I don't actually subscribe to that viewpoint myself, but I do think many on HN take the benefits of publishing on the App Store for granted.
> Should Microsoft be entitled to the same on windows and their browser?
I don't know, maybe? I'm sure people would riot if they tried it now, but if Microsoft had set that precedent from the start would we be here discussing this today?
You could, and any other music service could compete with Spotify on pricing. The difference here is that Apple also compete with Spotify with their own music service while they also want a 30% cut on Spotifys income.
And Apple would still demand 30% of it. Not sure how Spotify's fee structure has anything to do with Apple's fans' arguments that they're totally not behaving anticompetitively.
It’s a symbiotic relationship but not a symmetrical one.
In the beginning Apple needed the devs more than vice versa, but now it’s definitely the other way around.
Note the “more” part, it’s still a symbiotic relationship.
Apple couldn’t have made the iPhone successful without third party devs, but it’s doubtful Spotify could’ve been as successful as they are without access to the iPhone.
As an app developer for iOS myself I can say that Apple’s frameworks have been invaluable to me, especially the improvements and additions in the last few years have significantly made my work easier.
Not only that, because overtime I’ve become friends with some of the engineers that work on them, I also know how much time and money goes into them, at least on an individual engineer level.
So it seems fair to me that Apple gets paid for their IP. But I’m not interested in paying huge fees upfront like what was common when developing for game consoles, nor am I interested in paying potentially huge fees like the CTF.
To me, the best option is a revenue based commission. When I do well, Apple does well, but when I don’t I won’t owe Apple anything. This also motivates them to keep investing in frameworks, because with good frameworks I can make better and more successful apps, which then benefit them.
It also allows me to take risks and try out new things or even give away my work for free.
Personally I was already happy with 30% and that’s what I signed up for at the time. The 15% I pay now is of course even better, but it’s not like I passed on those savings to my customers.
If I ever get so successful that I hit $1m in revenue then I’ll be more than happy to pay the 30%, because I will have been successful in part because of the tools provided by them.
Or put differently, that success will be in part a consequence of what happened before I hit $1m, when I was still paying the 15%.
I’ve got friends that have launched their apps on Android as well, but those earnings are a rounding error compared to their iOS earnings and their apps are heavily being pirated on Android.
I can’t quantify what it is that Apple does different that it entices customers to spend money on apps (other than the lack of piracy perhaps), but it’d be silly to pretend like it doesn’t benefit developers to a degree that it warrants Apple getting something in return for that, in addition to the tool-based justification.
Apple accrues benefit from having Spotify in the App Store because it makes iPhones better. An iPhone with no apps is less useful than an Android phone with many apps. This should be a win/win scenario where both parties get value from the platform (they do!)
Also - Apple is welcome to just charge a fee for the costs they feel appropriate for the development platform and App Store distribution. However, that fee (one-off R&D, and per-download bandwidth) seems pretty marginal. I wish Apple had the guts to actually charge everyone to Core Technology Fee (50 euro cents per download), rather than requiring EU developers to opt into it https://developer.apple.com/support/core-technology-fee/
This is just showing poor understandings of personal boundaries.
Yes, Apple is piggybacking on various ISPs infrastructure. That is a deal the ISPs explicitly allowed everyone to do and marketed as a selling point for others to use in their services.
Apple is simply trying to enforce its own boundaries which it established before Spotify came into the picture.
Comparing a legal monopoly (utilities) to a privately developed computing product is a bit absurd. What easement rights and wireless spectrum did the EU grant iPhone?
Apple risked their resources and created the whole ecosystem before Spotify even existed. It's not like Apple put a gun to the heads of Spotify executives and forced them to use the App Store. It's the executives who reviewed Apple's terms and then decided that investing in Apple's ecosystem would be useful for Spotify.
How should Spotify reach iOS users? Through gimped PWAs? Through non-existent thrid-party app stores? Your argument makes it seem like Spotify has a choice when trying to reach a large part of the market. The don't.
I am just going to flip this argument. Hope this gets my message across eloquently.
------
How should Apple make a return on its investment? Through apps such as Spotify, who don't want to pay a dime? Through Governments, who are actively trying to sabotage it? Your arguments make it seem like Apple has a choice when trying to monetise a large part of the market. They don't.
------
I think you are taking the efforts it takes to build an App store user base as granted. Microsoft is spending billions to build one with nothing to show for it. Google managed to build something half decent and it continues to be envious of Apple.
App Store and iOS existed independently of Spotify. Spotify decided to invest into Apple's ecosystem, by their own conviction. Apple didn't force them. Spotify, as a behemoth, and a large part of their market, probably only exists due to Apple. Therefore, any arguments to the effect of "it is unfair to Spotify" are difficult to consider.
Your flipped argument doesn't work. Apple gets tons of money from... the people who buy the phones! The actual users! That they then consider these users to be a captive audience who can't be trusted to use the device they paid a lot of money for, is the questionable situation. Why can't these people engage in business with Spotify to use it on their device, that they paid for, without Apple coming back and asking for more money?
Can you image MS starts charging everyone (including everything done in the browser) because they are using Win32? Lol. The whole point of the OS is to provide API/ABIs and customers already paid for that.
I know. All those poor iPhone owners who bought them so they could use the millions of apps created by developers for free for Apple, and the same devs who also get rinsed on hardware and other costs. Apple get absolutely nothing out of any of this.
It would be just as fair in this case to say that Apple should be paying Spotify for making their app available on the App Store.
Luckily, by custom there is another solution - the platform providers charge nothing and let their customers decide what software to use, and the developers targeting the platform do not charge for developing their software for the platform. As it has worked forever on Windows, Linux, Android, MacOS, etc.