[keiferski]

I think this is more a consequence of consumerism and the media-nature of modern society and not directly from increased populations. It just seems that way because science allowing for larger food crops, less child mortality, etc. coincided with the rise of media technology.

[simonh]

What's the mechanism by which consumerism and media lead to lower child births though?

It's easy to see that in poorer countries with minimal or no pensions or social security having more children leads to greater productive capacity for the family, and a better chance of the parents being cared for in old age. Family connections are crucial support networks everyone relies on. Each extra child is another insurance policy for the future. In wealthy countries with pensions and social security none of that is an issue.

[keiferski]

Maybe it's not so much that media technology itself leads to lower child births, but that the particular media being pushed results in lower child births. Consumerism is the vehicle by which this happens, because corporations have little use for the family unit and much use for individualized consumers that buy, not make things.

My interpretation is that there are innumerable cultural things that are popular nowadays which discourage people from having children, whether that be TV shows that make "family values" seem outdated and backwards, urban housing that's too small for families, and so forth.

My general point is more that the problems with birth rates are more of a contemporary cultural issue (largely an exported Western one) and not something that just automatically comes with technological/economic development.

[simonh]

I just did some digging around on the research on this and that doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere, and it's a well studied issue. After all, for example existing housing stock hasn't got any smaller so that's easy to correct for in the data. The main correlative factors seem to be economic affluence, higher education levels meaning more women have careers, and access to birth control.

I really don't but the corporations pushing an agenda theory. Like all conspiracy theories, people doing the conspiring would have to actually conspire. They would to communicate about it, lots of people would know, some of them would change their minds, there would be leaks, especially for a conspiracy that has broad reach and engages with huge swathes of public culture communications.

[keiferski]

Where did I say anything about a conspiracy theory? Corporations care about their profits and shareholders, not on promoting any kind of societal values like family and children. This has nothing to do with a group conspiring in a smoky room. An entity pursuing its interests is not a conspiracy.

Honestly if your immediate jump is to accuse someone of conspiracy theory thinking, this isn’t a conversation worth having, because you’re not willing to think slightly deeper about the situation.

[simonh]

You're talking about corporations manipulating media ("the particular media being pushed") to discourage people having children. I'm talking about the pushing you referred to.

Even beside that I don't see how that works even from an incentive point of view. Lots of corporations sell things to children, or to parents for their children. There are huge swathes of industries organised around that. How is it to the benefit of companies to have fewer customers?

[keiferski]

Well remember that prior to the 70s or so, it was normal for a single earner (the man) to be able to provide for an entire family, including the non-working woman. That is no longer the case and indeed often two incomes are often barely enough.

It doesn’t seem that far fetched to me that corporations care about more people being in the workforce and as consumers, than as family units with only one earner and spender. Whatever can be monetized will be monetized.

And if that wasn’t the case, why weren’t companies pushing for more flexible jobs (part time, etc.) that would accommodate working women and motherhood?

Maybe it’s an oversimplified to say corporations “push” stuff into the media; and more of a cyclical process of culture and corporate interests, but I find the examples I mentioned (popular TV shows, etc.) to be pretty obvious and undeniable.

[watwut]

The thing that lowers childbirths is education of women, in particular education about birth control. That plus economic opportunities for women.

Nothing to do with consumerist media, just letting women know how to prevent 5th child.

[keiferski]

But economic opportunities for women in no way implies that these economic opportunities must preclude time for raising children. It's entirely conceivable for part-time jobs to exist, or for other economic setups that allow for maximizing the workforce while still promoting children.

This is a consequence of our economic and cultural systems, not because women working somehow become incapable of having children.

[watwut]

These were simply statistics. When women know how to prevent having many kids, when they are in position to make independent decisions, they want to have limited amount of kids.

Women with part time jobs and time for childcare still have easier time with 3 children rather then 5.

[littlestymaar]

You are both (at least party) wrong since the demographic transition started as early as 1750 (in France) long before childbirth started to fall and even longer before media technology (unless you count the printing press as one, but then how come the transition happened more than a century later elsewhere in Europe?)

[orwin]

To be fair, the black death killed France's first demographic transition, China might have had 2, and it is possible that one happened during the golden age of Islam too (and we don't know nearly enough about mesoamerican natives).

Abundance of food, and local peace is clearly the common denominator for demographic transition. The reason it did not happen in continetal europe is the amount of warring that took place there.

[littlestymaar]

> To be fair, the black death killed France's first demographic transition

Never heard of that, any sources to recommend on the topic?

> Abundance of food, and local peace is clearly the common denominator for demographic transition

That sounds really suspicious as description of France in the eighteenth century…

[orwin]

Louis-Henri Fournet was probably the historian I've read that from first. You can find the book on Amazon, but it's in French (tableau synoptique de l'histoire du monde). I used to be quite interested in the first empire era, then found his book on it, then found the book I've told you about and now I just read stuff on western history, from Louise de Savoie to the first world war

18 to 20 millions in a smaller territory than modern France. I also read that northern Italy demography was the same density, and only reach the same density circa 1850, but i'm not sure if it's from Fournet or a criticism of Fournet (I love reading historians' criticism, but the majority are academic papers or thesis)

[edit] > That sounds really suspicious as description of France in the eighteenth century…

Yeah, I was adding to the argument, I'm 100% in agreement.

[littlestymaar]

> Louis-Henri Fournet was probably the historian I've read that from first. You can find the book on Amazon, but it's in French (tableau synoptique de l'histoire du monde)

Merci (ça ne va pas poser trop de problème ;))

[keiferski]

France is discussed here as being somewhat of a unique case:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France