[tempest_]

> people underestimate how much of a quality of life improvement these are for people even when compared to Uber/Lyft

I do underestimate it. What are quality of life improvements? Seems to be the same thing from a customer perspective.

I guess if you are concerned for your safety from the uber driver it is an improvement but it is the only one that comes to mind.

[SeanAnderson]

A recent Uber driver of mine encountered bay bridge traffic, said, "I know a shortcut!" and veered out of the line waiting to enter the bridge. Then, Uber Safety called my phone asking if everything was alright. Then, the driver realized he didn't know where I was trying to go, asked me, realized I needed to go to Oakland, and spent 10+ minutes going in a slow circle to get back to the line of traffic.

A few drives later, I had a group dinner reservation at a restaurant downtown. I'm not a big sports person and I didn't realize I was asking to go downtown on the Saturday before the Super Bowl. Uber told me I had to wait 4 minutes for pickup, but that turned into a 20+ minute wait as driver after driver canceled on me when they saw where I was asking to go. I had to text all of the guests and apologize for being late to my own reservation.

A few drives later, I had a long conversation with a gay driver who recently fled from Iraq because his sexual identity wasn't respected there. I'm a mid-thirties, single male. The first question the driver asked me when I got in the car was if I had a family. I said no. Then he asked if I had a girlfriend. I said no. Then he slowly engaged with me in conversation for 10 minutes trying to figure out if I was a potential date for him and had trouble understanding that while I fully supported his sexual identity that that didn't mean I was an opportunity for connection.

Last weekend, as I was espousing the benefits of Waymo to a friend, they called an Uber while we were heading down from a restaurant at the top of an elevator. When we got down to the bottom floor, he was dismayed. Someone else had gotten into the Uber, the driver didn't check names, and they were now travelling on his dime.

Surely it's not that hard to envision the scenarios in which an autonomous driver might be desirable?

[timeagain]

This is misanthropic tech vision at its finest. I got a job recommendation from an Uber driver. My aunt (against TOS) built a private driver business based on her personality after driving Lyft from the airport. I had a great conversation with a Somalian driver who’s favorite music artist was Dolly Parton. Once a driver saved me from a hairy situation with an irate customer who was chasing me and throwing things, I tipped him $20 and we laughed about it—I was just happy to have someone to witness the crazy.

Not to mention the thousands of people who currently make a respectable living driving people around.

But maybe I’m just one of those extroverts who doesn’t mind being around people.

[SeanAnderson]

Great. I am happy you are satisfied with the quality of service you're given by human drivers. I would hope you would be equally happy with the increased enjoyment I experience from an automated driving experience.

We will have to agree to disagree on whether it's a beneficial change to society to disrupt human drivers with autonomous drivers. Personally, I found the argument that artists shouldn't be disrupted by AI much more defensible than saying drivers shouldn't be disrupted. It always seemed easy to look at previously disrupted jobs, like people getting up at 4AM to act as manual alarm clocks via peashooters on windows, and say yes, we should replace this simple act of labor with technology.

[johnnyanmac]

>But maybe I’m just one of those extroverts who doesn’t mind being around people.

Maybe. I had a very boring experience overall with mine. I wouldn't have noticed if they were replaced with bots. That could be my lack of extroversion (or maybe getting all introverts myself. Few gave a vibe of wanting to chat. Just a job, after all).

But for the short term, I'm paranoid right now about autonomous driving because it is far from technologically sound. Probably more sound than the average driver, but we know that we hold tech a lot more accountable than humans. humans hold liability in human issues, companies are liable for tech issues and have the money to spend to fight any issues that arise (as we can see in real time with Tesla).

[JumpCrisscross]

> maybe I’m just one of those extroverts who doesn’t mind being around people

Sometimes I want a chauffeur, usually one I have a relationship with, often I want a reliable ride. We’re all better off for having the choice.

[MenhirMike]

It would be nice to have an UberSSR option for sure, for the people that just want a ride.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FUQYPfL0Pg

[JumpCrisscross]

> would be nice to have an UberSSR option for sure

They ask for temperature and conversation preferences when you order a black car, which I find somewhat funny.

[ugh123]

>But maybe I’m just one of those extroverts who doesn’t mind being around people.

Maybe. Or you've just been "lucky" with the kinds of experiences you've had on Uber.

I've had some really annoying drivers, shitty drivers. People have reported assaults and some have ended up worse.

If this were a daily thing for people (which it could be in the future), I wouldn't want a 1on1 experience every day (twice a day) with a new driver each time, each with their own personalities, driving abilities, and needs at the moment. Forget that.

[CalRobert]

And how many people are killed by taxi or Uber drivers? Their stories matter too. If you're a pedestrian or cyclist you quickly realize how dangerous "professional" drivers are.

[AlbertCory]

Your assumption is that Uber/Lyft will now disappear and you'll HAVE to ride Waymo?

Seems dubious to me. Can't you still call an Uber in SF, where they've had Waymo for a while?

[ugh123]

I really don't see how a human-centered driving company survives with something that is near fully automated and new "drivers" can just be ordered up from Stellantis or whomever, provisioned, and sent on the road. The scaling laws just don't match up.

I say "near fully automated" because there's loads of operations involved, including human remote fleet management for when cars get stuck. But even that doesn't scale linearly with the amount of automated vehicles on the road, whereas Uber will always be at least 1:1 human:car.

[AlbertCory]

What is the cost in SF? This early review says the same:

https://archive.ph/7mPWk

So I don't see the point of theorizing, when we can get real-world feedback from customers.

[ugh123]

You're comparing costs now? The price for human powered uber's will always increase based on labor costs. The price to put an autonomous vehicle on the road and manage it will most likely decrease as more are deployed and Waymo gets better at operating them. Time will tell, but Uber will not last once Waymo gets good at scaling this stuff.

[bagels]

How will waymo help with something like the super bowl? It's going to be overcapacity too.

[JumpCrisscross]

> How will waymo help with something like the super bowl?

It will commit to the ride and not cancel.

[alistairSH]

Only if it’s coded that way. And a profit-seeking org may not code it that way if the optimal solution (for them) is canceling and finding more lucrative passengers.

[bastawhiz]

A profit seeking org wouldn't take the ride in the first place instead of repeatedly accepting and cancelling. Or it would simply increase the price because it implicitly knows the value.

[alistairSH]

And yet Uber allows drivers to cancel, which has the same impact as an AI cancelling.

[xw390111]

If they want me to take a ride tomorrow, they won't cancel on me today.

[SeanAnderson]

Waymo said it would take 30 minutes to arrive, but would've arrived in 30 minutes. I can plan around that.

[ugh123]

> How will waymo help with something like the super bowl? It's going to be overcapacity too.

Ability to scale the amount of Waymo cars to an area is immensely easier than scaling the amount of Uber/Lyft drivers available and willing to go to said area.

[nradov]

Nope. Cars are expensive. Waymo won't keep a bunch of extras sitting around just so that they have reserve capacity to scale up service during unusually busy events. It's more profitable just to make customers wait, or ask them to pay a higher fare for priority service.

[bigyikes]

Cars are extremely cheap compared to their drivers.

[aetherson]

I don't think that Waymo cars are.

[thereisnospork]

What they can do is trivially reroute cars from the suburbs - a level of supply control Uber can only approximate with surge pricing.

[nradov]

It turns out everyone in the suburbs is also going to a Superbowl party. Whoops.

[earthwalker99]

Simply not true. The US is constantly flooded with fresh immigrants who can get drivers licenses and drive for super cheap on unlivable wages.

[throwitaway222]

> Stuff where I want to be surrounded by robots all my life.

I mean, if a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound? Even if yes, does it matter?

If we're just going to let the robots be the only thing we see all day long, why not just call it - hang up the hats build full AGI and blow up the humans.

[SeanAnderson]

I don't consider driving in traffic to be a pinnacle of human experience worthy of preservation. I certainly have concerns about AI automating away some jobs, but I thought stop-and-go city driving was something everyone could agree on as being worthwhile to eliminate.

I'm surprised there's such a staunch defense.

[johnnyanmac]

>but I thought stop-and-go city driving was something everyone could agree on as being worthwhile to eliminate.

It's mixed. Driving is both a career and a pastime/hobby. I can certainly see a long term (30+ year) shift to AI driving being a hindrance to the latter, even if the efficiencies would be massive (e.g. there wouldn't be such thing as "stop and go city driving" to the extent of modern day driving. Stop and go is a product of inefficient human sensors and signalling).

As a career, yes. It probably won't exist in 20 years at this rate.

[JumpCrisscross]

> we're just going to let the robots be the only thing we see all day long

This is an uncharitable reading of someone wanting peace and quiet from time to time.

[alistairSH]

Going downtown on Super Bowl night isn’t exactly peace and quiet.

But yeah, taxis and Ubers can suck sometimes.

[konschubert]

Yes it makes a sound and it matters as much as you want it to.

[barbazoo]

> A few drives later, I had a long conversation with a gay driver who recently fled from Iraq because his sexual identity wasn't respected there...

Avoiding talking to humans altogether is one thing but couldn't we also just say "sorry I don't feel like chatting" or something like that?

[JumpCrisscross]

> couldn't we also just say "sorry I don't feel like chatting"

I’ve been hit on by a few Uber drivers. (Early thirties guy.) They stop talking then forget after two seconds. Unfortunately, the person who crosses the first boundary isn’t deterred by the second.

That said, I do appreciate the chutzpah of the driver who tried to invite himself to my date for a threesome.

[SeanAnderson]

Yeah, I could definitely set better boundaries. It's not a strong suit of mine.

[singleshot_]

I don’t need to be given a numeric rating by my chauffeur on how well I sit in the back of a car. The social play-acting part of ridesharing apps became exhausting to me (admittedly: an introvert) sometime during the first ride.

[jmward01]

I agree. Not everything in life needs to be a personal interaction. I just want to get from A to B. One of the reasons I like an actually functioning mass transit system is that you just get on and get off. Subways don't rate people (yet) and that is something I think good regulation could enforce here too. The problem is we have a long history of bad regulation when it comes to mass transit so we will see.

[johnnyanmac]

>One of the reasons I like an actually functioning mass transit system is that you just get on and get off.

would be nice to get that one day. In the meanwhile I guess LA is spending that budget here on Waymo for even more cars in traffic.

[Teever]

What makes you think that people who take Wayne rides aren't automatically rated?

[hypothesis]

Was not Uber plan to use human drivers as a stop-gap to autonomous driving? I doubt that they will remove ratings if they ever achieve that.

And Waymo is going to the same destination, just approaching from other direction.

[waych]

Is it better to leave it to an AI algorithm watching you in the back of the car? One way or another passengers are going to get rated.

[fiddlerwoaroof]

Yeah, imagine losing your gmail account due to some automated system malfunctioning and simultaneously losing access to the transportation system you depend on.

[singleshot_]

Of course, you are dead right. Thanks for thinking that situation all the way through, friend.

[mavhc]

But the safety of the driver is increased if bad passengers are eliminated from the job. Taxi driver is more dangerous that Police Officer in USA

[simplicitea]

....you can just not participate and keep to yourself and I guarantee you'll have a 5 star rating from every driver in america

[sbuttgereit]

I've used Waymo a couple of times now and absolutely find the experience superior.

As mentioned, the driving is sane... with other taxi and taxi-like services that can be hit or miss. But it's more than that.

When I get in taxi I can't help feel like I'm invading the driver's space in some way. The awkward conversations, the awkward silences, the music I'd never choose to listen to on my own, and that list goes on along similar lines; not to mention that many drivers feel like they have to engage in one way or another order to get a decent gratuity I feel more like I'm continuing to be "sold" something after the ride starts. It's just not pleasant.

In a Waymo, I don't feel any of that. I put something I want to listen to on the sound system or just enjoy the ride. Sure, I know there is staff somewhere watching me, but that doesn't bother me nearly so much as being in an incidental, albeit fleeting, social relationship with someone I might not otherwise chose to engage with.

So yes. A self-driving car is my first choice if my pickup/dropoff allows it.

[csharpminor]

It’s one of those experiences you didn’t realize you wanted until you have it.

- No need for chit chat, you can just work / talk on the phone / play music

- No 18-hour shift sweat and deodorant smell

- No cursing at other drivers or awkward apologies because of fear of a bad rating

- Smooth, predictable driving. I have yet to have a “holy shit” moment in a Waymo, but this happens regularly in Uber / Lyft.

Also on safety, about 50% of the population has to worry a lot more about being abducted/hit on/stalked/etc. Uber and Lyft know this and have gone to great lengths to recruit female drivers, set up safety hotlines, etc. Not having to worry about the driver is a big deal.

[johnnyanmac]

IDK, It just sounds like some people have bad experiences and is using negativity bias to justify early tech (and ofc a skewed audience who seems to abhor socialties). All my uber rides were boring and uneventful. I see no need to pay a premium to guarantee that.

Meanwhile the driving experience of autonomous drivers is still not at a satisfactory stage for me. Maybe it worked fine in SF, but LA has some pretty rough, unmaintained roads to navigate.

[mahkeiro]

In my previous job I took 1000s of taxis all over Europe getting all kind of experience (including getting in an accident with a drunk taxi driver). Uber are an improvement that removed a lot of shady things but riding a Waymo in Phoenix is for me the best experience as there is almost no unknown.

[akira2501]

> and ofc a skewed audience who seems to abhor socialties

At the same time every other story involves a horror over "going to dinner." They apparently don't abhor socialities, they just abhor having to be in the presence of the "lower caste."

[ra7]

Just the safe driving alone is a big improvement. Every time I get into an Uber, I hope and pray the driver isn’t aggressive and erratic. You always know what you’re going to get with a Waymo.

Plus, nice and clean Jaguar I-Pace vehicles. No person to talk to and no tipping.

[hacker_newz]

You trust an entity you can't interact with over a human being?

[ra7]

Having experienced Waymo’s driving, definitely.

[TulliusCicero]

Have you seen human beings? Especially when they're driving?

[_qua]

Granted I've never been in a Waymo but I've definitely been picked up by Uber/Lyft drivers who were extremely erratic and likely drunk or high.

[rajup]

100%. Seeing the idiots we give driving licenses to these days, I’d pick the machine every single time.

[gst]

After a total of 41 Waymo rides so far: Yes, absolutely.

[__loam]

You can call their customer support line if you have a problem.

[zht]

a car cannot rape me

[CalRobert]

Yes

[crawshaw]

Safety is the most important point across all customers. But as someone who is less concerned with safety, I still get enormous value out of Waymo. Let me try to explain:

Consider the distribution of Uber/Lyft drivers you have had. All the way from smooth driving, well-maintained car, through to erratic behavior and unpleasant environment. Imagine if the next time you got a driver you really like, you said "this driver only from now on" and that was the consistent experience you always got out of Uber/Lyft.

That is what Waymo is like. It is the same every time I get in. I do not have to think or adapt to a new environment. It is like sitting on my own couch at home.

[s17n]

That's because the cars are all brand new Jaguars that are impeccably maintained. If Waymo succeeds in becoming a widely used service that is price competitive with Uber, the experience won't be this good forever.

[crawshaw]

This fancy a vehicle? Maybe not, though I don't see why they wouldn't maintain a premium brand of some sort.

More importantly: the fleet is owned and maintained by Waymo. So they can achieve a higher degree of consistency. It is not the fanciness I value, it is the consistency.

Put another way: I can get a fancy car and a good driver with Uber Black. I would rate my waymo experience slightly above Uber Black.

[s17n]

Yeah, Uber used to just be what Uber Black is now, if you remember. I'm sure that both the consistency but moreso the average quality of Waymo will eventually decline (although the experience will of course always be more consistent than Uber). They aren't going to maintain a premium brand because they have billions of dollars of engineering costs that they need to amortize over the biggest possible pool of revenue.

[whimsicalism]

Having a car to yourself is honestly just way better, maybe I'm just antisocial

Like I will easily pay a premium to have self-driving most of the time. I can play my music on the speakers, I can work more comfortably in the car, etc. etc.

Also, I find Uber drivers are pretty bad drivers often - comparative advantage

[wnc3141]

The incentive to race through traffic is felt from the back seat in my experience

[dangus]

Owning a car yourself is the most costly option, so I would hope that it is the “best.” Purchase price, depreciation, maintenance, insurance, fuel.

Edit: to be clear I’m putting “best” in quotes because personal car ownership is pretty terrible in terms of value.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Owning a car yourself is the most costly option, so I would hope that it is the “best.”

I drove a car into San Francisco once. Never again. Not having to worry about parking, being able to nap or work en route, not having to get stressed by traffic, etc. Massive improvement in QOL.

[andrewprock]

If you pay a lot for parking or don't use the car much this tracks. But if you have the volume, then owning a car is cheaper.

An affordable mid size car costs roughly $6k per year total cost for a new car, and about 2/3 that for a used car.

If you commute daily to work, that is 500 trips per year. Two weekend trips adds another 100 per year. Now we are talking about ~$10/trip if you own your car.

When you add the premium value you get from flexibility, then it's an even better deal. If you only drive 50x a year then yeah, just use services.

[rufus_foreman]

>> An affordable mid size car costs roughly $6k per year

Show your math.

[johnnyanmac]

Really? do you want to see every little receipt from the GP?

I'll give a rough cost with my small sedan pre-pandemic

- Gas every 2 weeks (30 mile commute to work), fillin up the car is about $60. so $120 for gas. 120/month is 1440/year

- DMV costs are $150 a year

- car wash every few months. Let's make it monthly and more expensive than my actual washes. $50/month, 600 a year

- oil change every 3 months or so (probably less, but let's be conservative here). $70/quarter, 280/year.

- occasional repairs due to being an old car. sporadic, but let's throw in maybe $300 a year total.

- Finally, $100/month for insurance. $1200/Year.

so, ~4000/year. Given that that was a daily commute along with other short travel, it's cheaper than the idea of relying on taxis. Even if it was as cheap as $10/ride, it'd cost $4800/year to get to work alone. For my commute, it'd be more like $40-50/ride. Not even close.

ofc the rub here is that these are the costs for a paid off car, so if you don't own a car you need to factor in car payments, or the one time cost grabbing a used car. I grabbed my car for $5k before the car market (and every other market) went to hell, so it still very quickly paid for itself.

[bombcar]

It's all down to miles per year, a new car should last 100k miles "without major repairs" and if you drive 10k miles a year (whatever, if it's more it's more in favor of the owner) a car should last at least 10 years.

A new car is $40k, a 10 year old car seems to go for about $10k, so say $3k a year. So with a brand new car, still getting "around" that $6-7k a year.

Or to put it another way - at some point it HAS to be cheaper to own, because someone owns the car that is driving you around!

[Solvency]

I bought a 2022 vehicle and my annual registration is $600.

[rufus_foreman]

>> oil change every 3 months or so

That's just plain stupid.

[seanmcdirmid]

You can't park your own car at the airport safely and economically for a two week trip.

[johnnyanmac]

yeah, That's the only time I really consider Uber, when doing long term travel and parking costs/risks outweigh the cost of a taxi.

[whimsicalism]

owning a car in sf is miserable, i lasted 1 year

[aledalgrande]

> Like I will easily pay a premium

which would probably be the same as Uber after tip

[deprecative]

It's pedantic to most, I'm sure. Just FYI, though, antisocial is to be opposed to society - like Timothy McVeigh. Asocial is probably what you're looking for.

[lolinder]

You're not just being pedantic, you're also wrong [0][1][2][3]. Their usage is 100% standard and is encoded in every dictionary I can find, and etymonline lists it as the original definition dating back to 1797 [4], with "hostile to social order or norms" first recorded a few years later.

[0] https://www.dictionary.com/browse/antisocial

[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/antisocial

[2] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/antisoci...

[3] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/anti...

[4] https://www.etymonline.com/word/antisocial

[CalRobert]

Usage seems different between US and UK. I didn't understand ASBOs at first since I thought "what's wrong with teens wanting some alone time?"

[skyyler]

To be extra pedantic, I believe you meant Ted Kaczynski.

Timothy McVeigh was trying to make the US government pay for specific things it did to "his people"; Ted Kaczynski was lashing out at the industrialised world after living in isolation in his cabin in the woods.

[s1artibartfast]

IMO, Anti-social is defined in context of and from the perspective of the dominant social structure.

Both individuals and groups who are in opposition and sufficiently disruptive are anti-social, hence the distinction.

Asocial = a loner

Anti-social = against society, either as an individual or group.

[_acco]

- Safety: My gf much prefers to Uber/Lyft at night.

- Consistency: You know what you're getting.

- Privacy: Especially nice when traveling with a group.

- Instant pick-up estimate: It can take a while to find a driver with Uber/Lyft, and often the initial estimate is not fulfilled. While Waymo times are generally higher, you know before you press the button what the exact wait time will be.

[iaseiadit]

I usually have a good experience, but just in the last few weeks it’s been bad:

- Driver started watching TikTok videos on his dashboard-mounted phone while driving

- Driver going way over the speed limit in stormy weather

- A driver was clearly sick, coughing and sniffling and sneezing the whole ride

- Got in a car and it reeked of marijuana

- Got in a car and it reeked of BO

At this point I’d probably prefer a robot driver.

[sowbug]

Some of these will still happen, even in a self-driving car, because of prior passengers. In fact they might be more of a problem because passengers won't have another human in the car inhibiting their impolite or gross behavior.

I look forward to Snow Crash's self-cleaning public restrooms.

[NewJazz]

Pretty sure you get filmed while you are in the car so smoking is going to be a challenge.

[ericmcer]

For now they are still just cars with no driver. Once they are fully trustworthy though, the interior of the car could be repurposed in some interesting ways. Take out all the driving controls, add a desk, move the climate/radio control to a central console, captains chairs. The possibilities are endless.

[jmward01]

I've been thinking exactly along these lines myself. I bet a lot of people are thinking that self-driving + electric will bring van life to a whole new level. It may become the reality that a large number of people actually, purposefully, live in self driving vehicles/homes since removing the 'car' part greatly improves the living part.

[johnnyanmac]

You can check out the Hyundai Ioniq 7 for an idea of a non-conventional interior. Even then it still needs a driver's seat for the current day, so it can radicalize even further.

Though I'm not sure if we'll ever fully get to such a state. I can see driver's seats still being mandated in case of failure and a need to revert to manual driving.

[JumpCrisscross]

I’ve wanted a lay-flat ride between San Francisco and the South Bay for ages.

[SoftTalker]

Crash safety and the need for seatbelts will limit what can be done with the interior. There won't be any lay-flat seating.

[JumpCrisscross]

> won't be any lay-flat seating

If crash rates go down, and you have a flat surface that you’re strapped onto that is angled and has an airbag-like system to ensure as many G’s as eyeballs in or out, sure we could.

[olelele]

As far as my imagination goes any efficient seatbelts for a person lying down will be very painful in even a small incident if the passenger has a scrotum.

[dkjaudyeqooe]

The big one: dealing with people, any people, sucks.

Nothing is better than being able to go about your business without have to worry about social niceties and endless other tedious things associated with human beings.

[ugh123]

> Seems to be the same thing from a customer perspective.

Have you never been "forced" to talk to an Uber driver? :)

[fragmede]

Have you accepted Jesus into your life yet?

[bastawhiz]

It makes me super anxious when drivers run stop signs, drive in the shoulder, or perform other maneuvers that I'd never perform while driving myself. Knowing I'm in a car with no risk of an accident due to knowingly breaking the law would bring me a great deal of peace.

[JumpCrisscross]

> What are quality of life improvements?

Not having to tip. Having the car take a sensible route and not some idiotic detour Waze thought was clever. Having a car that’s always paying attention instead of being on a perpetual phone call. Being able to make phone calls without feeling obnoxious or worrying about one’s rating. Being in an objectively safer ride. Not having to listen to a rant about how the angel Mohamed saw was actually a demon because he was scared or get given a sermon about why being gay is evil. Not having drivers cancel on you because they don’t want to go where you need to.

[NewJazz]

You don't have to tip anywhere for any reason.

[rufus_foreman]

Can you respond to a reasonable interpretation of "don't have to tip"?

[washywashy]

Consistent driving and ride quality could be a benefit

[unshavedyak]

When i was in florida at Orlando, my wife and i experienced several of the worst Uber/Lyft drivers i can imagine. We're talking regularly breaking the law while driving, drivers. My wife also regularly encounters drivers she is uncomfortable around.

In general i'd vastly prefer a non-human experience.

[NewJazz]

Yeah that one comes to mind. Personal safety is often a factor influencing public transit decisions as well.

[dangus]

Private transit*. Uber and Waymo are private transit.

Something to note is that actual public transit (buses and trains) has something like 10x fewer annual deaths than private vehicles, because fatal accidents almost never happen in them.

Personal safety is a much less statistically relevant concern compared to personal injury.

[OkayPhysicist]

The fundamental problem with public transit in most of the US that has it is that it's not the best option. And when it's not the best option, you get a selection bias towards passengers that most passengers wouldn't want to ride with. Which encourages more people to take other options. Rinse repeat.

I like BART. It's actually really convenient, connecting where I live, where I work, and where a bunch of my friends live. Unfortunately, I have a negative experience upwards of half the time I ride it. Sometimes, it's minor, just some person talking nonsense to themselves in the corner. Whatever, puts me on edge because I lose confidence that this person won't transgress social norms in more extreme ways, but I can live with it. Sometimes the entire car smells like a latrine. Sometimes it's a dude laying across the aisle pleasuring himself. Also not going to kill me, but also is something I'd rather avoid, and absolutely can by not riding public transit.

Uber, by contrast, I only have to worry about the driver making me uncomfortable, and that's relatively rare. Maybe 1 in 10 rides will involve a driver either driving like a maniac, or reeking of BO.

With Waymo, there are none of those issues. Hop in a vehicle, it's clean, it drives safely, and there's no naked lunatics.

[rvnx]

There is a big difference between Uber and Waymo.

You can actually be safer in a bus (aka public transit) than in Uber depending on where you live.

With Uber, every time you take a taxi, you are playing the lottery, hoping you get a normal driver, who is not tired, who is not dangerous, etc.

With Waymo, you get a private car, all for yourself.

[dangus]

Waymo has still not proven to be as safe as a public bus. It can get into a crash just like any other vehicle. It can (e.g.) be hit by a drunk driver in ways that are likely to be much more injurious to the passengers than if the same situation happened to a bus. Buses have far more inertia than the vehicles around them, they're more visible, and they are driven by professional, trained drivers. Waymo has not provided enough specific data that points to their vehicles being safer than public transit or their driving skill outperforming a trained professional driver (not just a random person with a license off the street like Uber uses). I'm skeptical considering how death rates are a full 10X lower on public transit compared to automobiles. Even if Waymo is twice as safe as a human-operated automobile, that still makes it 5x less safe than public transit.

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-community/safety-topics...

[standardUser]

Most of this country is a sprawling mess that does not lend itself to traditional mass transit options. Yet those same spaces have an abundance of well-maintained roads. At a certain point we need to accept we are not Europe and we need transit solution suited to our multi-trillion dollar pre-built infrastructure. Self-driving cars are likely to be a big part of that.

[deprecative]

Yeah, but public transit is socialist and helps the poor and minorities so we can't have that in the states beyond the massive cities that more or less force the issue.

The distinction is absolutely important between public and private transit. However to most folks they'll be the same thing in the end. Maybe local governments can buy cars for private public transit, which could be nice depending on funding and all that.

[NewJazz]

I don't think you understand.

I was specifically saying that people prefer private transit to public transit because of safety related concerns.

[dangus]

Are the concerns rooted in statistical fact or just fear? Most people in the United States basically can’t imagine an alternative to car-first infrastructure.

[NewJazz]

Does it matter?

If somebody is too afraid to ride the bus because they think they'll get raped, does the facts really matter? Or their feelings of physical insecurity?

[johnnyanmac]

>If somebody is too afraid to ride the bus because they think they'll get raped, does the facts really matter?

on a micro level, no. On a macro level, yes. People have individual fears, but those individual fears shouldn't influence the decision of multi billion dollar transport budgets. As cold as it sounds, injury or harm is built into the costs of such transportation.

With all that said, LA has indeed gotten much less safe, and public transportation has never really been "good", per se. On a micro level, I literally could not get within 2 miles of work from bus schedules one way, and 5 miles the other after work (back when work was in town). It wasted enough time that it would have been worth considering biking 15 miles a day instead of using a bus. If I wasn't in such poor shape it'd take almost the same time (which was double my driving commute).

[seanmcdirmid]

> Something to note is that actual public transit (buses and trains) has something like 10x fewer annual deaths than private vehicles, because fatal accidents almost never happen in them.

I've never had a fent zombie wave a knife in my face on private transit, but it has happened a couple of times on public transit. I get that it is technically "safer", but we have a long way to go before normal people will feel safe on it (in the states, other countries obviously do this better by not allowing their buses and light rail to be turned into roving day centers).

[dangus]

Did you get injured or die? 30,000 people die of car crashes every year, about half resulting from a much more common and legal drug.

How many people die of assaults on public transit every year? I’ll let you look that one up.

Fear isn’t the same as risk. Lots of people are afraid of planes. Not a single passenger died of as a result of a commercial airline incident last year in the United States.

[seanmcdirmid]

No I didn't die, but I wasn't happy either. Enough that I feel like I have more control over my fate if I drive.

> Fear isn’t the same as risk.

I don't think you've ever had a knife waved at you by a crazy person before. Don't be an idiot, if something looks really dangerous, it probably is.

> How many people die of assaults on public transit every year? I’ll let you look that one up.

The first one this year in our city was just 4 days ago.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/man-fa...

That article also lists out recent violence on public transit in my city (like the guy hitting people with a hammer on the train). In comparison, 36 people were killed in car crashes in 2022, 28 in 2023.

[dangus]

I'm not saying that it wasn't dangerous, I'm saying that the statistical probability of the situation you were in happening and resulting in an injury or death is lower than the probability of injury or death in a motor vehicle.

You might feel like you have more control over your fate when you're driving, but as the say in the deep bowels American political culture, "facts don't care about your feelings." The same factually-incorrect risk evaluation is used by people who prefer driving over flying on a commercial airliner.

31% of all fatal crashes in 2021 involved drunk drivers, a much more common drug which is 100% legal. You don't have control over your fate in a car when other drivers on the road make up all of the moving objects that you can run into.

Not to mention the fact that crime can still happen to you while you are driving, a common example being carjacking. [1]

Your own numbers that you provided tell us the opposite story that you want to tell. The very first transit death this year just happened almost 3 months into the year. Meanwhile, 28-36 yearly car crash deaths in Seattle averages out to over 2 deaths every single month. That means by the time someone died on transit, something like 6 people had already died in car crashes in the Seattle area.

Obviously, more people are driving than taking transit, but still, in Seattle almost half of all trips downtown involve public transit.

[1] https://mynorthwest.com/3951485/docs-mom-called-911-before-b...

[standardUser]

Some of my most terrifying moments in life have been in cars on the road. I've had a few dicey moments on public transit, which I use constantly, but nothing as truly life-threatening as the near misses I've experienced on the freeway.

[seanmcdirmid]

All of my scary moments in a car were on long road trips where public transit doesn't really apply, and with pedestrians walking out in front of my car on green lights (probably fent related also).

[AlbertCory]

I think the "improvement" is that it ought to be cheaper. Whether it actually is remains to be seen.

Some people, like his mother, can't drive anymore. They might be encouraged to stay in the homes they're used to, instead of moving to assisted living.

[maximus-decimus]

Today my Uber driver wore so much cologne it made me wanna puke after a 5 minutes ride. The other day, one tried to convert me to his religious group.

[Solvency]

I can't even buy fruit from a certain grocery store because some kid there must were cologne. The fruit absolutely reeks of it.

Waymo cars will be no different. All it takes is one Armenian guy visiting Glendale slathered in cologne to nuke one of those cars permanently for all time.

[popcalc]

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Armenian%20s...

[__loam]

Super minor but I've gotten sick in ubers like 3 times in the past year from erratic driving. Has not been the case for waymos.

[derwiki]

Yea, rideshare drivers are aggressive to the point of making me feel unsafe. I’d rather have granny Waymo drive me around.

[pokstad]

George Hotz said it best: “self driving is already here, it’s called Uber”

[simplicitea]

I was about to ask the same thing; I have a hard time seeing the ways it ends up a net gain when driving is still a decent job for a lot of people, and rideshare drivers keep to themselves anyways

[ilaksh]

You might find it easier to understand if you had lost a friend or loved-one in a car accident.

Society will have to adapt to the advancements in AI and robotics.

The status quo is not a good option because (globally) cars cause over a million fatalities each year and over 20 million injuries. Driving, riding, or walking near vehicles is one of the most dangerous activities in modern life.

An extremely high percentage of deaths and injuries will be prevented as self-driving cars are deployed, since almost all accidents are due to human error.

[deprecative]

A car that can drive itself will always be the better option to the companies that can afford the market share. Nobody cares about how automation will remove jobs for folks. These things are important to note. Your opinion as a customer is secondary to the cost to the provider.

[johnnyanmac]

>Nobody cares about how automation will remove jobs for folks.

no one cares until it happens to them. I guess that attitude is part of the reason why this will succeed in the end.