[talmand]

As a front-end developer who attempts to keep up with the latest and greatest in my industry, I have to say that there does seem to be some sort of bubble with people on their Macs. Too many times I've seen documentation that assumes that everybody is on a Mac. Too many times I've seen demos that assumes that everybody is on a Mac. Too many times that software that can easily be cross-platform are not or they don't document it as such. Too many times I've seen comments that say if you aren't developing on a Mac then they heavily imply you're a loser.

Much of that also assumes that everyone has an iPhone or an iPad.

For instance, why is getting Phonegap up and running on a Windows machine such a tragic pain in the ass? I got it going on my laptop to play with and after that experience I'm considering putting "successfully installed Phonegap on a Windows machine" on my resume and LinkedIn profile. I may be missing something but even the Windows install documentation I've seen on their website is several versions behind the current release.

As a counter, getting SASS running on my Windows machine was a breeze in comparison.

Now, if it's software and you only want to develop it for OSX, that's cool. But if it's a simple tool that can easily run cross-platform, then don't pretend it doesn't.

It's like the complaints about webkit only prefixes on so much stuff on Github, I'm willing to bet it's because of Mac people not caring about every other browser/OS out there. That's a guess, nothing to back that up.

Most of the people who complain about developing for IE being difficult seem to be Mac people and more than likely have no idea what they're talking about. With my job I support gecko, webkit, and IE7+. Until recently that included IE6. I do not use hacks unless I absolutely have to and I avoid using IE-only style sheets. IT IS NOT THAT HARD!

If you think supporting modern versions of IE is too hard then you may need to reconsider your workflow as it's probably the problem. It is your job to support all the browsers your customers use despite your personal feelings on the matter. Of course, if the browser use is below a certain percentage you're comfortable with, then by all means go for it. I do.

I develop on a Windows machine because our platform is based on .Net. We have two Macs in the office that two of our designers prefer. If need be I can ask them to look at something for me. I personally do not develop for nor test for Safari on OSX so I have no idea of all the differences and challenges of developing for it. But I sure as hell don't say it's too hard to bother with.

[fellowniusmonk]

When you run your own site your job is to do whatever you want, however you want, it's your chance to be opinionated and exclusionary, and as long as you are not begging me to invest money, more power to you.

Also open source and sharing is more robust on linux and posix platforms, so people naturally develop tools they can use on their own platform, with their own workflow, and who cares if it gets ported to windows, I'm not creating a product to sell, I am sharing my personal toolset in a friendly way.

Why are you complaining about the difficulty of installing a FREE opensource project on a platform that is not native to the Devs? Of course it's more difficult! Why are you complaining so loudly? Why are your expectation so entitled? Did you even bother asking for help on Stackoverflow?

[talmand]

Simple, if it's an open source project that's a tool for web development and the only barrier to making it cross-platform is rather insignificant, such as vendor prefixes on CSS3 features as one example or even just proper documentation, then I'm going to complain about it. As is my right as a member of this open society we call the internet.

The devs always have the right to ignore me and I'm sure many will. I'm fine with that.

If we're talking about a native app and the devs don't feel the need to port it to another platform, then that's cool. Which is exactly what I said before, but you skipped mentioning that. But if they say the thing works on Windows and there's difficulty in getting it done, then there's a problem. If I have to go searching through third-party websites to get their app working, then there's a problem. If the documentation for the platform that they claim to support is outdated, then there's a problem. I don't understand why it's so bad for me to point this out. It's not like I'm saying that BBEdit doesn't work on my Windows machine and therefore it's bad software.

I guess I only have the right to give criticism, constructive or otherwise, if I paid for the software? Then maybe all those complaints from the linux community aimed at Adobe for their lack of support of their platform should go away? Personally, I think their complaints are perfectly valid. It's funny, I've pointed out problems on other projects presented here and I was thanked for it. But I guess the response varies.

Getting SASS working on my Windows machine did not seem as easy as it appears to be on a Mac, simply because of the difference in environments. Even just using it seems easier for some reason from what I've read. But you know what? They gave instructions on how to get it done, they were relatively easy, and I was up and running in a decent amount of time. That was a good experience, I did not feel that the devs were limiting me based on my needs for a specific development platform. Therefore, to me anyway, that is a good example of a software project meant to help in web development.

But to be honest, I was not aware that I was complaining that loudly. Nor did I realize I was coming across as entitled as I thought I made it quite clear I do not think I am. Well, maybe I am about the complaining thing.

[fellowniusmonk]

Did you email them and ask? Or submit an issue via Github? Did you ask for help on Stack Overflow? Once you found the fix for yourself did you submit a pull request? Did you contribute? Maybe write a guide for others so they won't have the flounder around in the same way you did? I never said you can't or in some "moral" sense shouldn't complain, nor do you have to contribute, but as cathartic as your post may have been, that is all it is, complaining for the sake of complaining (feel free to try and shame or bitch about open source projects all you want, but when that is the first and only thing you do, you're being lame).

An attitude of entitlement, and posting in random off topic forums where you are relying on the off chance someone from the project might stumble upon your complaint just makes you a silly person.

[talmand]

I have to be honest here, you've been so adamant on your position I had to go back and consider my original post to see if maybe I need to adjust my thinking on some things.

So, my first thought was about the concept of people being in their own bubble with the Mac community. It seems you had no comment whatsoever on that. I guess you might have been referring to that in your comment about linux and posix platforms. But if a demo is for a tool for web pages then it only makes sense that it be compatible with browsers capable of doing the same as webkit. It has nothing to do with OS.

Then I mention my negative experience with installing Phonegap on a Windows computer. You don't specifically mention anything about my experience in your response. I would have to say from my perspective the difficulties of getting Phonegap working on Windows is rather well-known, it's nothing new.

Then I mention SASS and hint at my positive experience. You completely ignore that.

Then I specifically state that I'm cool with someone developing an OSX only app. You completely ignore that.

I again mention the webkit prefix deal on Github. Since Mozilla and Opera more or less agree with me on that I feel no need to comment further.

Finally I speak of people complaining about developing for IE is hard and why I think they're wrong. I end stating that I'm in a similar situation with having to worry over Safari on OSX and I don't claim it's too hard to bother. Again, you completely ignore this.

Your response to all that is that when I run my own site job I can be opinionated and exclusionary. But I'm complaining about other people being exclusionary and you find fault with it from me. Then you seem to claim I want people to port their linux tools to windows for my benefit. I did no such thing and actually stated the opposite. As for complaining about difficulties of installing a free open source project, I still feel no issue with me doing that as long as the project claims to support my OS of choice.

My response to you is to clarify that if someone makes a tool that could easily be cross-platform and they choose not to then that's reason for complaint. I also state the devs have the right to ignore me. Again your ability to ignore my statements continue.

Again, I point out if devs don't want to port their native app to another platform then I am totally fine with it. Again you ignore.

Then the do I have to pay to complain question. Also the linux community complaining to Adobe which I agree with. Again you ignore.

I expand on my experience with SASS in a, I feel, highly positive manner. Again you ignore.

Then you respond with a complaint that I'm not contributing, which seems to make not much sense in relation to what I was talking about. Your attitude seems to suggest that I have some strong misgivings against the open source movement and that I am attributing some sort of indictment against the entire community. As I pointed out, I did not. You say I claim entitlement, I don't see that. You seem to be saying I was complaining about projects in the hopes a dev would see them even though they are in an off topic thread. My original post was on topic for the OP article since that's what I was commenting on. You were the one to somehow turn this into me whining about, apparently, the majority of the open source community.

I have to say, I completely disagree with almost every word you have written about my comments. I'll just say we'll have to agree to disagree.

I also apologize for the wall of text.

[fellowniusmonk]

----- Brass tacks:

Some guy coded/paid to release this opensource project on his own time, and for free, you can easily copy it or change it in any way you see fit. His time is his own, he paid it into this project without asking anything in return, the second you start making complaints about him being lazy, or him not spending his time how YOU want him to spend it, especially when you NEVER EVEN TRY to contribute, you're acting like an asshole.

----- Elaboration:

You seem to not understand this concept AT ALL. Let me give you an example. This example is not perfect, because within it there is actually MORE room for complaint, since the person in the story cannot contribute and fix the problem the way he could in the phonegap situation.

Pretend you are homeless, but have a functioning car and get an allotment of 24 gallons of gas per day.

A private person drops off a plate of free sandwiches, they made these sandwiches with their own time, using money they made from working in a coal mine at their real job, and the food is from their own stock, which they paid for. They put them out for all to eat for free in a heavily trafficked area and go home exhausted at the end of a long coal mining day.

But you live on the other side of town. So you complain about the person being lazy.

The person complaining is an asshole.

But! That person still has a more legitimate reasons to complain than you do, you have been given all the ingredients, they are literally stacked on a table right in front of you, there is one very easy (as you have said so many times) solution before you eat the sandwich. When you pick it off of the table, you have to turn it sideways before you can fit it in your mouth. You have personally done this yourself and managed to eat your sandwich, and yet you complain.

AND! Not only do you complain, but instead of very easily turning the table so EVERYBODY else with a sideways mouth can easily eat sandwiches, you stand off a few feet from the table eating your sandwich and shouting about how that free sandwich guy is such a lazy asshole.

----- Summation:

You can always complain, feel free to do so, some people complain when it rains or when the sun shines. Just keep in mind that complaining in certain circumstances makes you an asshole. This is one of them.

----- Longer missive. (I didn't put any time into making this clear or readable, readers beware):

You list all these things I am ignoring, I don't have to address every point you make. Do you feel your are entitled to my addressing every little point you make? By all means, complain about it, as clearly stated in my last post, you are free to do so, and you show quite the appetite for it.

I am addressing a specific instance where entitlement was displayed (coincidentally, your counterpoint about say "but, but, talk about how much I liked Sass", is one where you didn't encounter a problem. Of course I wouldn't expect you to demonstrate a sense of entitlement when stuff works.), and then I listed some actions you could have taken that would determine if your response to the hardship you faced was silly, that isn't changed based off of your other experiences or peripheral issues, nor do I assume that your attitude is perpetually silly and entitled, or that you are prone in all areas to displaying an entitled attitude.

if someone makes a tool that could easily be cross-platform and they choose not to then that's reason for complaint.

Seriously, do you even know how github works? If it is so easy to fix then fork the project or submit the pull request your damn self. For an opensource project, if it is ACTUALLY as easy to fix as you say, then complaining in this fashion is like complaining that your mom forgot to put mustard on your sandwich when you have a knife in hand and the jar of mustard is open in front of you. Sure, complain all you want, you have every reason to do so, shout to the heavens and whine, disparage your mother behind her back to the world at large. But seriously, don't be a baby, just take the time to dip your knife in the jar and spread some mustard, grow up.

Well (and this is said within the context of my prior post, and this specific project, meaning, you are allowed to complain to your hearts content, knock yourself out man) if it is as easy to fix as you espouse why haven't you submitted the pull request on this free, opensource project? This ease of "fixing" which you speak, combined with your lack of addressing it, combined with your complaint, provides the perspective that makes your complaint silly. In fact, the more valid your complaint (ease of fixing, etc.), the sillier your complaint becomes (unless you have submitted the pull request and are now complaining about inaction or something).

Your response to all that is that when I run my own site job I can be opinionated and exclusionary. But I'm complaining about other people being exclusionary and you find fault with it from me.

Either you didn't get the point I was making in the first place or you wrote this part really poorly, please provide clarification of what you thought I meant and why you used the word BUT you seem to be indicating the second sentence was dealing with the same point as the first sentence?

Then the do I have to pay to complain question. Also the linux community complaining to Adobe which I agree with. Again you ignore.

My whole post was an answer to that question! Also, the second sentence is just blame shifting "but but, look at what other people are doing! Address that too!". Let me quote myself, which has already addressed my opinion on both issues, if you had cared to read it:

I never said you can't or in some "moral" sense shouldn't complain, nor do you have to contribute, but as cathartic as your post may have been, that is all it is, complaining for the sake of complaining (feel free to try and shame or bitch about open source projects all you want, but when that is the first and only thing you do, you're being lame).

Clearly in the context of contributing, this means I think the "best practices" for complaint, and what makes a complaint lame or not-lame, is different for open and closed source, due to a persons opportunity to contribute.

I checked the pull requests on this project. Looks like for all the complaining you speak about (I will take your word for it), including your own, there isn't a single damn windows user who has actually submitted a pull request to fix the issue, nor from what I can tell has anyone forked the project and fixed it themselves. So it looks like this is a collective failure on the part of all developers (who are complaining) currently developing (using this project) in the Windows environment you mooching lamer (again, only within the context of this project and those who have complained, I don't know why I am writing a post this long, you clearly didn't read my last one (which was much shorter), or are unable to comprehend). Cry, bitch, moan, whine all you want, I am sure you can find the justification that this is reasonable behavior somewhere in your own mind, but that is who you are if you continue with this kind of behavior, and quite frankly I wouldn't want to support a community with my opensource project, that created and I work on using time that is COMPLETELY my own, when they complain without contributing.

Complain in your little corner all day long, I don't mind or care, I welcome it, because it makes it easy to identify your freeloading lameness. Super lame. When you have submitted the pull request to fix this "easy" problem you keep kvetching about, then you will be less lame.

Complain to your heart content. The fact remains: Submit the Pull request, otherwise, you are just an entitled leach complaining about an issue when you could be supplying an easy fix (You said it was easy right?). That is my final communication on this specific matter, if you want to continue the conversation submit the pull request with the easy fix first.

[talmand]

Wow.

You got me, you're totally right. I point out issues, complain if you will, on an open source project without contributing to it in any way has now made me a lame moocher who is beyond contempt in your eyes because I somehow have a problem with the entirety of the open source community.

So, I guess when I see a problem with an open source project done on a platform I don't have access to or coded in a language that I do not know, I'll just keep my mouth shut on the subject. Too bad that's the majority of people who use open source software. I guess they all should be quiet as well.

If I see a problem that's easily fixable I'll start installing software, learn Git, get an account on Github, learn the procedure of pull requests, learn the terminology, and then hope I get everything right so that someone like you won't call me lame. Scratch that, I'll go with your other suggestion and email the devs directly.

I believe your tirade goes back to my original comment about people developing in their bubbles. You are assuming quite a lot, your examples are not proper comparisons; to me anyway. I'm also still confused on whether I can complain or not, since on one hand I can but then you clearly state if I haven't done A, B, or C then I should be quiet.

But, you got me, I'll go into my corner and be quiet since that's the only thing I'm allowed to do in your worldview. My big corner with lots of people who are apparently not welcome in your club, sorry I don't know the secret handshake.

I apologize for insulting your community so much and causing so much aggravation/anger in your life.