[jdwyah]

yes, this is needed too. Specifically for real usage based systems, how do we get these limits to apply all the way down to our API rate limits / filters? And how do we output the usage of these things back to the billing system for metering.

Sooo many usage based pricing things out there (ironically with totally non-transparent pricing), but I agree that it doesn't feel like the right solution has been built yet.

[LeFever]

> ironically with totally non-transparent pricing

Oh man tell me about it. I also think the trend towards metered, pay-as-you-go pricing in general doesn't make sense for many businesses or their customers, but I digress.

Curious if you've thought much on how to distill feature-flag entitlements, service-limit entitlements, role-based entitlements, billing-based entitlements, and so on to a single interface like "Can I [action]?"

Edit: Ha, just saw your reply in a separate thread. Yes, you have thought about it. :) Would be curious to learn more.

[jdwyah]

So yeah, some assorted thoughts:

1. Some of these are primarily updated in a UI, some are driven from some other system. Flags are customer UI, but Auth is often customer's customer (admins setting RBAC) or derived from SAML Role / etc.

2. There are very different personas / different blast-radiuses for different changes. This means that there should be different interfaces for the creation and administration of the different type of things.

3. Different scales. Dynamic configuration / feature flags are great, but you don't want the rule payload to be GB, which you would have if you tried to store fine grained permissions inside it. Zanzibar is awesome and should be available to more people.

4. It would be best if we could all agree on the names & types of these objects. I think schema files and code-generation are underused.

5. My inclination is that entitlements are just feature flags under the covers, but that there's enough different that a custom UX is warranted.

6. It's easy to add a ton of latency to applications with this stuff. First we spend 50ms getting the user... then we go get the billing for 50ms... then we get the entitlements for 50ms... There are big gains to be had by having this solved holisticaly.

hmu anytime jdwyer at prefab.cloud would love to hear your thoughts.

[LeFever]

Some of these immediately resonate. I'd love (4) to be a reality but it's going to be a struggle to get there, not that it isn't worth striving for. And while I agree with (5), the "covers" are often complex/dynamic and where a lot of difficulty in implementation and maintenance occurs (Sorta touched on in (3)). (6) is what got us thinking about this idea of distilling entitlements in the first place.

Will definitely reach out. Thanks!

[jschorr]

"Can I [action]?" is the exact question that Zanzibar[0] was designed to answer in a highly performant and scalable way.

With multiple data sources reading and writing to SpiceDB [1] (our OSS implementation of Zanzibar), those questions can further be extended into "Can [subject] [action] on [resource]", which allows for supporting not just permissions, but (as you suggested) feature flags, entitlements, role-based access control and even billing-based entitlements (if the billing system's information is supplied in as relationships or dynamically via caveat context [2]).

As a concrete example, feature flags can be represented as a straightforward permission:

  definition user {}
  
  definition featureflag {
    relation enabled: user
    permission is_enabled = enabled
  }

They can then be checked directly:

  check featureflag:somefeature is_enabled user:{currentuserid}

The real power comes into play when different aspects of the system are combined, such as only allowing a feature flag to be enabled if, say, the user also has another permission:

  definition organization {
    relation member: user
  }
 
  definition featureflag {
    relation enabled: user
    relation org: organization
    permission is_enabled = enabled & org->member
  }

In the above example [3], a feature flag is only enabled for the specific user if they were granted the flag and they are a member of the organization for which the flag was created. While this is somewhat of a constructed example, it demonstrates how combining the models can be used to grant more capabilities.

With caveats [2], these kinds of questions can even depend on dynamic data, such as the time of day, whether the user's account balance is positive, or even be random based on some distribution (to enabled, for example, partial enablement of feature flags)

[0]: https://zanzibar.tech/ [1]: https://spicedb.io [2]: https://authzed.com/docs/spicedb/concepts/caveats [3]: https://play.authzed.com/s/eML6cLz9ByAZ/schema

Disclaimer: I'm CTO and a cofounder at AuthZed, and we build SpiceDB

[LeFever]

This is cool! We're just starting to look into this area as we integrate pricing/billing/plan logic and entitlements at scale. Thanks for the example and reminder to read through the Zanzibar white paper.

[esafak]

Do you encourage implementing feature flagging and entitlements in spicedb? I did not see a "use cases" page on your site.

[jschorr]

Definitely! We ourselves, in fact, use SpiceDB for our own dynamic feature flags internally.