[Raztuf]

It's obviously anecdotical but I know both many smart persons without higher level education and many 'not-so-bright' persons with university degrees. However, all those with degrees have parents with degrees and those without come from lower class, for the lack of better term, families.

If your parents have never set foot in an university and worked manual labor all their live, you are less likely to even consider higher education. While doctors may want their children to pursue a good career, even if those children hold no interest in that education.

[dakiol]

> If your parents have never set foot in an university and worked manual labor all their live, you are less likely to even consider higher education.

That’s not what I have perceived in developing countries. Usually those kind of parents work very hard precisely to allow their children to go to university and have the life they didn’t have. They don’t want their children to work like their parents.

[tiznow]

Developing countries are quite different from the USA (which I understand isn't everyone's frame of reference, but is mine). My family is from a developing nation, I was told explicitly as a child to focus on education to try to manifest the best possible (white-collar) life for myself. That's one school of thought. Having a degree in almost anything is probably far more transformative in Africa than the USA, presently.

But, in many pockets of the USA, most people generally do not even consider going to college outside of athletic scholarships because the only people they know who did are teachers, who might end up being some of the lower-paid people they have encountered. Or they've seen people work "by the hand" and end up in a better position than people they know who went to college.

[dingi]

This was my anecdotal evidence as a person from a developing nation as well. Parents around these parts give utmost priority to children's education because its the only way they can get out of the vicious cycle of poverty. Add free education to the mix and, you have a lot of people with a less privileged background getting university degrees. A Lot of people moved out of poverty within past couple decades.

[0xEF]

My delineation between those with degrees and those without has always been the type of feedback received through the learning process.

Those with degrees tend to be great with theory, but lacking in practice or application. Mind you, they are otherwise pretty bright people, so I don't fault them. They simply didn't get the corrective feedback needed along every step that tends to come with putting an idea into practice. I think of the engineers I work with daily as I write this. They can design new product in CAD all day, but have never built one, which hampers the implementation of their design in the real world and frustrates them.

Those who learned by doing, as opposed to 'studying to the test' such as myself will have a much stronger grasp on the ways things might go wrong (or in some cases, not actually be possible even though it works on paper or in simulation) and be better prepared for it. However, we also tend to have considerable gaps in our theoretical knowledge, and tend to try to make up for it by our ability to quickly adapt or problem solve.

Combined, I'd say the two types of people do make a good team, so long as each is compensating for the others deficiencies in a mutually beneficial way. I rather like the engineers I work with, and they seem to like me, so together, we are pretty valuable to each other and our employers. With other teams, I see this relationship break down when one side starts with the "they don't know anything" attitude.

[katzgrau]

IDK, I went to a state tech school and the huge majority (including myself) were from union/working class parents with no degrees. For at least my parents, getting a degree was seen as a ticket to a better life.

At the time, that school was also the cheapest (and consistently ranked at best value) so I think it just kind of self selected.

The competing private tech university however … I’m guessing those kids had parents with degrees.

[TacticalCoder]

> If your parents have never set foot in an university and worked manual labor all their live, you are less likely to even consider higher education

Maybe. But one thing I've noticed is that, in Europe at least, there's a huge difference people who value learning and working and those who don't: degree or not. There are people who've been doing manual labor their entire lives who value learning, knowledge and working.

One parent of mine got a university degree, the other didn't. I'm entirely self-taught (in more than one domain) but the thing is: my parents valued learning. My mom would, after work, create "learning games" for us, for example.

A friend of mine is a lawyer: his parents and grandparents were farmers/paesants but they valued working. He is proud of being the son and grandson of "paysants" ("peasants"). My wife's grandparent was an intellectual working... In a coal mine (after WWII he had no choice: he ended in a country where he didn't speak the language and the only job he was offered was in a coal mine).

Heck, my grandfather was a lawyer but he quit lawyering to... Build chalets in the countryside. With his own hands. He was doing manual labor but he was an intellectual and very well educated.

I've got lots of respect for farmers / blue collar working people. But I cannot stand the entitled, 90 IQ, people holding a bullshit degree (not all degrees are bullshit) and doing bullshit work and asking for 28 hours workweek while I've got doctors friends whom, after 10 years+ of studies, are working their arses off (for a great salary, granted).

My point being: there's higher education (like becoming a doctor or the engineer working on the machines that doctors do use to cure cancers) and "higher" education, as TFA shows.

People don't like IQ as a measurement but I know the IQ of those who make these machines and those who create medicine. And I know smart plumbers, electricians, farmers, ...

I've got friends (well, family really) who are both doctors and they don't get to see their kids as much as they would like to: but they explained me that they prefer their kid growing up seeing as role models people who save other people's lives and who work hard to do that.

They consider their job useful. Just as they consider a plumber's job useful (I had to dig once for five hours in human manure to locate a clogged pipe on a sunday to save the plumber some time on monday morning... Though job they do these guys: yup, it's virtually always men doing that).

But bring me someone with a 90 IQ holding a "gender studies" "higher education" degree and I'll want to slap him/her/zhe in the face with a cluestick for they produce jack shit of value to society.

[nonrandomstring]

There are four distinct concepts at play;

  -  Innate capability, as intelligence, drive etc

  -  Access, in terms of money and background culture

  -  Accumulated capability, as education or training

  -  Credentials, certificates

Two are input conditions, two are outputs.

Some people are born smart, but they choose not to go to university. Or they live in a culture where it's unnecessary. They thrive as autodidacts. Or they are lone wolves who can accumulate capability on their own much better.

Others are born smart but they have no access, no family money, no grants or loans, or they live in a culture that frowns on class mobility. If they are lucky they can self-teach anyway or find mentors. If they are unlucky they are sadly wasted. That's a lot of people in the world, because IQ and global intelligence has been steadily rising.

Some people are born dumb as a brick, but they have family who insist, and pay for them to attend. Or they live in a culture that shoehorns everyone through university as a matter of course, or as a holding pen for youth.

The outputs of formal education likewise vary. Some really smart people go to university and fail. Some universities are awful. Students come out lacking the piece of paper their parents and gatekeepers want.

And of course there are some really dumb people should never have gone to university, but they were sold it, or pushed, and their failure is a real knock-back in life. I've seen university destroy many young people. It's a fucking tragedy and I absolutely blame the extractive wannabe culture of education as a cosmetic product.

Some cognitively challenged people manage to cheat and weasel their way through obtaining a degree certificate. Maybe they're not so dumb huh, because they learn guile and corruption necessary for modern life.

Regardless the credentials, some people may or may not obtain an actual education while at university. The space, free time, the library, access to smart professors... these are all opportunities to blossom. Some, at the lower ranking universities, merely get parochial training, which expires within a year and they need to "retrain". In this way education is a great racket.

Some people follow the path of enlightenment. They really do start out quite intellectually weak, but while at university they find themselves, study hard, become well educated and smarter as they "learn how to learn" and the value of knowledge and self-discipline. For them, university is the making of them.

Some even follow this path and realise late in the game that the certificate isn't worth waiting for, so they jump off and start life early. I believe Messrs. Gates and Zuckerberg fall into this group.

Anyway, in 30 years as a visiting professor I've seen all of these things and more. Higher education varies around the world, as do the cultures that set the value and desirability of HE.

The problem is that western universities have become degenerate. They've been taken over by a toxic culture of financialism and professional management and are no longer fit places for teaching, learning and research. They fall into the GIGO taxonomy, as degree mills where you pay £20,000 or whatever, and you damn well expect a degree. And if you don't get one then sue.

And to be honest, in the UK that's most of them now, not just the provincials but the Russell Groups too. The only reason to go is for the networking and certificate and that requires a gatekeeper culture to keep up its value - one which is rapidly crumbling.

When people ask me now, "Is it worth getting a degree?", I have to be very sceptical. What do you really want to do in life and what sort of person are you?, those are the more important questions.