[runjake]

This is correct. Apple used to care about being UNIX, so they could gain traction amongst a certain subset of like-minded power users. But all those like-minded engineers have left (eg. Avi, Bertrand, etc) or drank the new Kool-Aid (eg. Craig).

Now, they maintain UNIX certification to comply with contract requirements. I think if they could get away with it, they'd stop shipping Terminal.app as soon as they were able.

[jwells89]

> I think if they could get away with it, they'd stop shipping Terminal.app as soon as they were able.

I don’t think believe that’s true. Apple has always treated the Mac differently than its other devices, even back in the iPod days and before. One can still see that today in how for instance they made M-series Macs capable of booting third party operating systems when it would’ve been much easier to not do that, with the architectural base of these machines being iPads. macOS has had some bolts tightened in the past decade, but all of that has legitimate value in security and stability and much of it is being mirrored by other desktop operating systems (e.g. immutable system, moving things out of the kernel to userspace, etc).

[smoldesu]

> they made M-series Macs capable of booting third party operating systems when it would’ve been much easier to not do that

"much easier" is maybe a stretch. Both options come with their own tradeoffs; rework the boot system to be like iOS and you have to rewrite the software to be compatible. Plus, it's not like their boot process comes with UEFI or a nicely-documented interface; it's a black-box with devicetree drivers. Not unusual for an ARM device, but nobody laid out a welcome-mat.

We shouldn't have to celebrate features not being taken away in the first place. Apple's hostility towards standardization can't be normalized, or else we will literally lose our agnostic internet and telecommunications infrastructure. The industry is suffering from their contempt for cooperation.

[jwells89]

Standardization is an entirely different argument. The point is that it’s unlikely that Apple wants to do away with the Terminal because it treats the Mac differently than it does its other devices.

[smoldesu]

I still don't agree with your point, then. Apple does treat the Mac just like their other devices, and they use it as the justification for sweeping API depreciation and user-hostile software decisions. If Apple made a decent way to develop apps entirely in Xcode, I wouldn't trust them to keep iTerm around for a second.

Xcode Cloud is the writing on the wall, don't say we didn't warn ye: https://developer.apple.com/xcode-cloud/

[jwells89]

API deprecation on macOS is somewhat overblown. It’s not difficult to get a decades old FOSS Mac app compiling again, and it’s even possible to get projects targeting OS X precursors building with a little effort. Binary compatibility is what gets broken more frequently and is necessary to keep an OS from tripping on its own compatibility hacks.

Should macOS ever lose its terminal and associated capabilities, it’d spur mass migration of users from several STEM fields overnight. It’d be a colossally stupid move that’d destroy a sizable chunk of revenue coming from sales of high-margin and high-spec machines and services that these users buy to use with those machines.

[smoldesu]

Really it depends on perspective. The #1 reason I left MacOS after Mojave was the fact that none of the APIs I deployed to were naively available anymore. I had to buy a new computer to get updates for the same software I used before. I waited for Apple to reverse their stance, but it never happened.

It's entirely feasible that most people don't encounter the breakage or even notice it. Developers do though, and the breakage on MacOS is legitimately unprecedented. It's the most prominent example of API decay I've seen in a long time.