[palata]

I think it is debatable. Can I make an iOS app in pure Python, and should Apple make it possible? I think Apple has the right to decide what kind of API they provide to their users. Just like nobody is forcing Tesla to allow running Windows "because some developers would like to run Windows apps in their Tesla".

I can see a problem with the monopoly on the App Store given the dominant position of Apple. But if Apple decided tomorrow to remove the screen from all their phones and have audio control only, I think it would be their choice.

[jemmyw]

Why do they have a right to decide what kind of API users can use? I know that's not exactly how you worded it, but on other computing platforms like Windows, Microsoft provides APIs but doesn't prevent developers putting in other APIs. You should be able to write an iOS app in pure Python, but maybe with reliance that someone else provides the bindings so that you can display the graphics. iOS and Android locking out whole possible ecosystems with "only we can decide what code is allowed to run" really sucks.

[palata]

> Why do they have a right to decide what kind of API users can use?

Because they make a product that they sell. If you make a speaker, you can decide if it has Bluetooth, WiFi or nothing. If you want a speaker that has Bluetooth, you need to buy a speaker that has Bluetooth. Not buy one that doesn't and go ask the EU to force the manufacturer to add Bluetooth.

> iOS and Android locking out whole possible ecosystems with "only we can decide what code is allowed to run" really sucks.

That's a perfectly valid opinion. Others will say that not having root access and having a checked App Store increases the security (and that is true). You can try a Linux phone, if you want freedom.

[etchalon]

That's not really the issue the OP is arguing though.

He's saying "PWAs have had 10 years to be good and dominant and they're not yet and that's on them."

I'm saying "Well, but, Apple."

Whether and how Apple should support PWAs is a separate conversation.

[Turing_Machine]

> Can I make an iOS app in pure Python

https://python.plainenglish.io/python-for-ios-the-ultimate-g...

Yes?

[smoldesu]

> Can I make an iOS app in pure Python, and should Apple make it possible?

Given that neither the browser or iOS runtime can interpret it, no? I think it's reasonable to expect people to write an iOS Python interpreter and expect to get that distributed though. And if the users deliberately install it, what's the problem?

> Just like nobody is forcing Tesla

Tesla has to certify vehicles as road-safe. Besides FCC compliance (which Android handles just fine), Apple doesn't really have many legal safety obligations to use as a defense. Unlike a Tesla, Apple can let users sideload iOS apps without threatening other users around them.

[palata]

Maybe I did not express myself well. My point was that Apple not embracing PWAs is their choice, I don't see the problem there.

I see a problem with the idea that "we did not convince Apple with our PWAs, that's probably because they are evil, so now we'll try to force them with the law".

[smoldesu]

Why do you see that as a problem? Apple is welcome to leave if they disagree with Europe's market terms. They didn't leave Russia when they made their demands though, and Lord knows they're deep enough in bed with China. Whipping up a fuss over sideloading and PWA guidelines is a red herring; Apple is just butthurt that regulators found their infinite service revenue loophole.

Apple has every right to self-determination, but sometimes that means deciding whether they agree with the law.

[palata]

> Why do you see that as a problem? Apple is welcome to leave if they disagree with Europe's market terms.

The problem I see is that IMHO, the law should not force Apple to accept a new technology just because web devs don't want to learn Apple's technology (that provide at least the same features as PWAs).

> Whipping up a fuss over sideloading and PWA guidelines is a red herring; Apple is just butthurt that regulators found their infinite service revenue loophole.

That's the thing: you conflate the App Store with the PWAs, and that's where I disagree. Enabling side-loading of native iOS apps is completely orthogonal to enabling PWAs. For some reasons pro-PWAs hijacked the side-loading lobbying effort and are trying to leverage it for their own agenda.

[smoldesu]

Well, you're welcome to take issue with that I suppose. The way I see it, Apple has invited this for years; the only way in their ecosystem is through the App Store or the browser. If they make unreasonable demands out of their App Store, the exploitation of the browser will be next. It's been this way since Cydia, really.

Much as we'd rather deny it, the App Store and Safari are inextricably linked on iOS. There aren't alternatives allowed to either, and the purpose leads back to the same reason; control. It's really not hard to see how Apple's desire for stable service revenue is at-odds with the capabilities of their platform. The DMA and the DSA both give Apple the ultimatum; loosen up or ship out.

[danaris]

> And if the users deliberately install it, what's the problem?

And is this a universal principle of yours?

For instance, would you say the same about malware—that anyone should have the right to develop it, and use whatever shady tactics they want to trick people into installing it—and if they do, that becomes their problem?

[smoldesu]

Users don't deliberately install malware, though. They do install Python runtimes; you can secure this the exact same way desktops have done for decades, by signing executable.

It's literally elementary stuff.

[danaris]

Users don't deliberately install malware that's called "Install This To Give All Your Money To Scammers."

They deliberately install an app that's called "Funny Videos Daily Ha Ha!", that also has a rootkit or whatever that gives all their money to scammers.