[ddanieltan]

I'm super excited to try this out! Couple of questions since I see @mbostock active in the comments.

1. Is the flexibility of languages used in data loaders/backend going to eventually come to the front end/ui? Or will the paradigm always be bring-your-own-language for the data loading but build your dashboard with observablejs/observable plot?

2. Considering ObservableJS is supported by Quarto, can we look forward to Observable Framework integrated with Quarto too? Or is the fact that the latest Quarto version also featured Dashboards more of a competitor to Framework?

3. Saw some comparison to Evidence.dev in the comments. I saw some shades of similarity with the markdown focused dev experience too but I recall Evidence chose Apache Echarts for their main charting library. Any thoughts of the pros/cons of Echarts vs ObservableJS/Plot?

[cscheid]

(disclosure: Quarto dev here). I'm a huge Observable fan.

Speaking entirely for myself, this space is so important that I'm thrilled to have more activity rather than less. Quarto's great and Observable's great. I hope folks pick the tool that's best for their use case!

[an1sotropy]

I'm looking forward to learning more about which one makes it easier to see how various possible changes in the data are mapped to legible changes in the visualization.

[cscheid]

... sorry about the weird question, but do I know you in person? (there's a tiny chance your comment is specifically an obscure inside joke from a past life of mine, and I can't stop myself from taking the bait if so)

[mbostock]

1. We don’t have immediate plans to bring other languages to the front-end — maybe TypeScript, but that’s just stripping annotations; maybe some WebAssembly. Our idea is to have a clear serializable “membrane” separating your back-end (in any language, running on build on your servers) from your front-end (in JavaScript, running on load in the client). Data loaders produce data during build, which gets handed-off to the client to render. Trying to do data processing on the client is often a frustrating and poor user experience. Likewise trying to render great interactive charts without web technologies is quite limiting!

2. I can’t speak to Quarto’s plans. Observable Framework is open-source so they might pick up some of this stuff. I look at Framework more as an alternative to Quarto than a complement.

3. As the creator of Observable Plot (and D3 before that), I’m a huge fan of visualization grammars! Apache Echarts is a chart typology, and while it’s got a lot of chart types in it, it has no overarching conceptual model of how to represent a visualization. And so it’s not very interesting. But “the proof of the pudding is in the eating” as I say in the post, so I encourage you to look at Observable Plot and decide for yourself if you like both the syntax and the resulting plots. I certainly do!

Leland Wilkinson said it best: “If we endeavor to develop a charting instead of a graphing program, we will accomplish two things. First, we inevitably will offer fewer charts than people want. Second, our package will have no deep structure. Our computer program will be unnecessarily complex, because we will fail to reuse objects or routines that function similarly in different charts. And we will have no way to add new charts to our system without generating complex new code. Elegant design requires us to think about a theory of graphics, not charts.”

[apitman]

That's an interesting quote. What is the difference between charting and graphing in this context?

[mbostock]

See Leland Wilkinson’s The Grammar of Graphics. He describes the difference between a chart typology (a fixed set of chart types with a fixed set of configuration options) and a grammar of graphics (a set of orthogonal primitives that can be composed in arbitrary ways).

[Optimal_Persona]

Wilkinson inspired Hadley Wickham to articulate a Layered Grammar of Graphics embodied in his ggplot R visualization package.

https://vita.had.co.nz/papers/layered-grammar.html

[tophtucker]

From the Observable Framework point of view, you’re very welcome to use Apache ECharts or any other library instead of Observable Plot, since you can import whatever you like and it’s all just JavaScript.

Since there was a lot of interest in this thread, Mike added a page to the docs with an ECharts example: https://observablehq.com/framework/lib/echarts

There are two pieces of that example code specific to Framework: the html`` tagged template literal creates a DOM element (see https://github.com/observablehq/htl, also usable outside Framework), and the display function inserts it into the document above the code block (see https://observablehq.com/framework/javascript/display). Note that, whereas Observable Plot takes an options object and returns a DOM element, ECharts instead takes a DOM element and mutates it — but in general they should be equally easy to use in Framework.

Like Plot (and Vega-Lite, another great option), ECharts is also now one of Framework’s built-in “recommended libraries” (see https://observablehq.com/framework/javascript/imports#implic...), meaning that if you reference `echarts` Framework will lazy-load it for you. Adding that was a two-line diff: https://github.com/observablehq/framework/pull/811/files#dif.... But I wanna emphasize that Framework doesn’t have to explicitly “support” a given library for you to use it. “Supporting” in this case just means the convenience of saving you a one-line import statement. But don’t wait for our blessing!! Use whatever.

[kuatroka]

3. Apache echarts are much more interactive out of the box. The API is indeed clunky, but they’ve got all the chart type and all interactions you might need. IMHO, Plot in comparison, is very limited in interactivity and even chart types ( there are no heat maps or donuts).

echarts have a huge example library with clear examples and though Plot has it too, the library is not thought out well. You might looks at an example in the Plot Library only to realize later that it’s a D3 example. On the good side, the API in Plot is much cleaner and easier to work with.

[mbostock]

There are lots of ways to do heatmaps with Observable Plot. See the raster, contour, and cell marks.

https://observablehq.com/plot/marks/raster https://observablehq.com/plot/marks/contour https://observablehq.com/plot/marks/cell

We generally recommend stacked bar charts over pie and donut charts, so we haven’t prioritized those. But you can already implement them using custom marks, and there’s even a hacky way of doing them using Plot’s map projection system.

https://observablehq.com/@observablehq/pie-to-donut-chart

I don’t understand your comment about the “D3 example.” If you’re looking for Plot examples, you can find them linked from the Plot documentation and the gallery:

https://observablehq.com/@observablehq/plot-gallery

Plot is designed to be extended with JavaScript (rather than a non-JavaScript DSL such as Vega-Lite), such as for custom marks and data transforms. So you might occasionally see other libraries being used together with Plot.

[kuatroka]

I'll check the raster, contour, and cell marks. Thanks.

"I don’t understand your comment about the “D3 example.”..." 1. When I visit the Plot Gallery https://observablehq.com/@observablehq/plot-gallery 2. Go down the page to "More from Observable creators" 3. Select an example I like, for example - https://observablehq.com/d/3ea4b4458fed9242?page=2&collectio...

It turns out it's D3, not Plot. I think you just have all possible viz in this section, but for me as a user coming from the Observable Plot page and clicking on "See more..." my expectation is to see only examples of what could be done with Plot, not both D3 and Plot. I need to explicitly click on each link an check if it's Plot based or not. It gets tiresome and the curiosity just wanes away. Thanks.

[tophtucker]

Hah, I just pared down that “More from Observable creators” section the other day to make it less obtrusive, and inadvertently made it more confusingly blend into the notebook contents. This is good feedback; we’ll refine it!

[mbostock]

That “More from Observable creators” is just a standard footer we put across the site for signed-out users to showcase community content across Observable. It’s not part of the notebook. You can ignore everything below the “Appendix”.

[RyanHamilton]

I can second a +1 vote for eCharts. I have used them for fast updating charts (10x second) and they work and look great. I've only had 2-3 small niggles with them in 2years of heavy usage.