[bluejekyll]

What was the relationship then? In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right?

And they knew Luke was Anakin’s his son. Obi wan mentions Anakin being corrupted by Vader. And the fight at the end, Vader now the master, etc. Was it really still a question of Vader and Anakin were different people until the second movie came out?

[canjobear]

Lucas only came up with the idea that Anakin = Vader after the original Star Wars was out, when he was revising the script for Empire. Before that we were supposed to take Ben Kenobi at face value when he said that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father.

[notahacker]

And if you think that's a big deal to introduce a change like that, let's not forget that Lucas' first draft for A New Hope had Luke Skywalker as an elderly general, "Annikin Starkiller" as the protagonist, Chewbacca as a leader of a tribe of Wookies behaving very much like the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi (and a presumably-unrelated human pilot called Chewie!) and Han Solo as a giant green alien...

[fbdab103]

Taking place on a planet of Wookies would make the Empire losing the ground battle make significantly more sense. Legend has it that it was changed to Ewoks for the kid toy opportunities.

[PlunderBunny]

I don't doubt that for a moment, but I think I once heard an interview with Lucas where he explained that, by the time they got to the third movie, Chewbacca had 'become' more intelligent, and that he specifically wanted the empire to be defeated by a 'primitive' people.

[ethbr1]

Wow.

So basically, if one line of dialog in A New Hope had been less ambiguous as it happened to be written... Vader wouldn't have been Anakin?

[hgs3]

I'd say the original already isn't ambiguous: Kenobi directly tells Luke that Vader murdered his Father. The "from a certain point of view" scene had to be added in ROTJ to explain away the retcon.

[canjobear]

Ben Kenobi does pause in a pregnant way right before delivering the fateful line. In a way that almost looks like he's thinking about how to hide something. It works perfectly with the later revelation.

[ethbr1]

For reference: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hFB16GCocfw

It's crazy that essentially the entire Star Wars canon is built on one piece of dialog by Alec Guinness. (Not just Anakin/Vader, but the Force and the events around Order 66)

[MichaelDickens]

The face he makes at 0:56 does look like the face of someone who's trying to come up with a lie.

[lupusreal]

More likely it would just be left to the fans to come up with their own justifications for the retcon, like most other inconsistencies in Star Wars.

[mmustapic]

> What was the relationship then? In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right?

From a certain point of view.

[dudinax]

This script is good evidence they made up the connection part way through Empire. Also, if Lucas already had it in mind for Star Wars, I doubt he'd have Obiwan straight up lie about it.

[pests]

I don't even consider it a straight up lie. I know we have decades of this built into our culture, and its been basically ret-conned, but...

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father"

I could still see Ben making this metaphor for the internal struggle Anakin dealt with, not wanting to reveal the truth in that setting.

[djur]

And he's "named" Darth Vader; "Darth" being a title also didn't come until later. Obi-Wan calls him "Darth" like it's his given name.

[nemo]

Pretty sure it was as much a part of planning the first episode as his later decision to have Anakin build C3PO. The early Star Wars scripts and materials are all over the map, there was no plan. This script just makes that all the more clear.

[binary132]

I always assumed it was written this way on purpose and thought it was a cool moment. Oh well.

[stevep98]

But the "I am your father" wasn't in the shooting script anyway. The script said "Obi-Wan killed your father", and it was changed to "I am your father when James Earl Jones" said the line for the voice of Vader. Maybe it is that way in subsequent published scripts but not the original.

[greedo]

They didn't trust David Prowse, so the lines were altered in the shooting script. JEJ then recorded the actual lines.

[ksherlock]

Right... Lucas told Mark Hamill before that scene was filmed so he would ham up his reaction.

[kevinmchugh]

And also so that the secret wouldn't get out

[matt-attack]

Relevant:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ATcaQYh0wPU

[Snild]

> In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right?

I don't think it is. At least not that I can remember.

[taejavu]

Yes, and I’m struggling to imagine why you think it is even implied that they could be the same person, from the first film alone. Could you explain further?