[doctor_eval]

> parsing required props and such out of this destructuring assignment is a bit magical, but to be honest in my view not significantly more magical than the rest of Svelte.

I think this is the only place we really disagree. To me, the export syntax is obvious and consistent, even if under the covers the behaviour is magical.

On the other hand, the $props syntax is not obvious; for a putative assignment to result in a declaration has no basis in my previous experience. Both the syntax and the behaviour is magical.

If Svelte is about the vibe, Svelte 4 was perfect for me - it’s why I moved from Vue, which I found had too many magic objects, and then doubled down on it with Vue 3 (I think) and refs. With Svelte 5, I feel it’s making the same mistake - the vibe no longer gels with me, and I gotta say, in addition, that pushing reactive behaviour into pure JS feels like a huge mistake to me. Sadly, I think I’ll be getting off this particular train.

Edit: I think my reaction to this is because $props - and the other runes - are effectively svelte-specific keywords added to JavaScript. I'm sure the Svelte folks have their reasons for this; but I hate it. They could have just introduced a new actual keyword, like "prop myProp = 5". I honestly can't see myself ever adopting Svelte 5.

[__jonas]

Interesting, because now that I'm looking at them a little closer, it seems to me runes are reduction of magic objects in Svelte

> At first glance, this might seem like a step back — perhaps even un-Svelte-like. Isn't it better if let count is reactive by default?

> Well, no. The reality is that as applications grow in complexity, figuring out which values are reactive and which aren't can get tricky. And the heuristic only works for let declarations at the top level of a component, which can cause confusion. Having code behave one way inside .svelte files and another inside .js can make it hard to refactor code, for example if you need to turn something into a store so that you can use it in multiple places.

(https://svelte.dev/blog/runes)

If the vibes are subjectively off for you with the new syntax that's fair, I just can't get it to align with what you are saying because at the end of the day, they are removing some Svelte magic and replacing it with regular JavaScript, apparently even the "$" label dependency tracking stuff, which I find to currently be the most magical thing in Svelte

To me that looks like a step to making Svelte more easy to reason with, but vibes are subjective in the end.

[doctor_eval]

I get that runes are in some sense a reduction of magic, I just don’t see the point. Svelte 4 feet, to me, incredibly natural to write, because the choice of idioms matched so closely with the behaviour I’d expect from JavaScript. Going into Svelte 5, I hoped to see fixes for the things that bit me - missing transitive reactivity in $:, for example. But not wholesale changes to the way you declare and use the framework.

Anyway I certainly agree that the vibe is subjective, but I for one am bitterly disappointed by Svelte 5. It’s yet another framework that can’t make up its mind, and stick to it.