[a321neo]

Public sector IT in Denmark has been in a weird tug of war between those eager to sell out our data to American companies and those who naively think Ubuntu and LibreOffice can realistically replace the public sector's dependency on Microsoft.

We need to keep our data in Denmark and become less dependent on American companies (and especially Microsoft/Google). But the change needs to be led by IT professionals who care about usability and know better than forcing Linux and LibreOffice down the throat of elderly office workers.

One approach is to identify the business processes they are using Microsoft/Google apps for and then offer the entire process through well-designed web apps hosted in Denmark.

[rob74]

> better than forcing Linux and LibreOffice [...] well-designed web apps hosted in Denmark

Sure, instead of replacing Windows/M$-Office with Linux/LibreOffice, replace them with a web app which requires the elderly office workers to change their habits even more?

Why not sponsor developers to contribute to LibreOffice and fix the parts that aren't working or are causing problems instead? If all the public sector entities interested in replacing M$-Office in Europe contributed, they could really make a difference...

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I'm far from a Linux zealot, in fact I'm writing this from Windows as it's the OS I prefer for my personal computing needs, but I don't see much of a problem with elderly office workers using Linux.

The main problem with Linux usability is installing and updating it. If all you do is browse, fill web forms and write documents, and you have the software to do so installed and maintained by someone else, I don't see how it can be much harder to use than Windows. It could even be easier in the sense that they could safely open "catvideo.exe" while slacking at work without causing a disaster.

[noir_lord]

If someone else is doing the maintenance then moving from Windows to Linux is no different than from Windows to Chromebook (arguably easier) for the average senior.

I moved my mum to Linux over Windows about a decade ago and her only requirement for a computer is that it has to run that "minty thing" - bless her, she has no idea what an OS is or why she should care.

[nonrandomstring]

> But the change needs to be led by IT professionals who care about usability and know better than forcing Linux and LibreOffice down the throat of elderly office workers.

I say there's a fair bit wrong in that sentence that needs unpacking:

Sadly, most schools do not have "IT professionals". They get the person who knew a bit about computers and rose into the role - often by attending a few week-long Microsoft training sessions pushed at the school.

We need to get more real IT professionals in to schools, those who have professional chartered status and observe codes of ethical practice such as those the BCS advocate.

Secondly, IT professionals do not necessarily care or know anything about usability. That suitability is for the teacher to discern. Administrators care about budgets and ease of administration. It's their convenience and usability that comes first. Usability is context dependent. Which leads us to....

There is nothing wrong with the usability of LibreOffice or Linux. They are both excellent products and in my subjective experience far superior to those from Microsoft or Google.

We are talking about kids who have minimal needs and are working on school projects, like a 1000 word essay, not important business deals, safety critical systems or urgent reports with pristine scientific typesetting that need to be published yesterday in Nature.

[ParetoOptimal]

> We need to get more real IT professionals in to schools, those who have professional chartered status and observe codes of ethical practice such as those the BCS advocate.

Pay is too low compared to what they can get elsewhere.

[weberer]

>and those who naively think Ubuntu and LibreOffice can realistically replace the public sector's dependency on Microsoft

I was writing book reports on that exact stack over a decade ago. Its perfectly fine for students. Most people don't even explicitly chose Windows. They just use and adapt to whatever comes with their computer.

>forcing Linux and LibreOffice down the throat of elderly office workers.

Let office workers chose their needs on a case by case basis. But that shouldn't affect the stack you give to students.

[theprivacydad]

I went from teaching in a Google environment to teaching in a Microsoft environment this year.

Though Google now feels familiar and relatively easy (though try moving documents from one folder to another online...), I'd almost forgotten that when it was first introduced, it was met with a lot of resistance, and teachers and students alike were confused for years.

Microsoft spaces (Teams, Edge) are far, far worse.

Since the schools I've worked at run their own servers locally, I think using Nextcloud as your main platform should be very doable. The apps you can install are mostly very slick and modern. (I use Talk for calls now, for example). https://nextcloud.com/blog/keep-your-data-in-your-school-use...

I see the point about the clunkiness of LibreOffice. But as a teacher, I see great value in thinking carefully about what you introduce students to, because once a decision is in place, the effect multiplies with each new cohort of students.

[nonethewiser]

The de-division of labor. I suppose the effects will be the opposite of the division of labor.

[hospitalJail]

Ubuntu? No way. Nothing on the DE works on Debian branch, basically avoid for consumer use.

Fedora? Yes please.

LibreOffice is downright terrible, please do not lump it into a problem of OS replacements. I'm 100% convinced there is some M$ plant that deliberately makes the GUI bad. I still use it, and I use Google's.

[4gotunameagain]

Unfortunately the US will never stop the hard courting of Denmark (the influence of which can be readily seen in Danish society, as American values are antithetical to Scandinavian values), because of Thule Air Base, the northernmost US military base, in Greenland.

You can see how much young Danes idolise the US. This could be said for more EU countries, but by my experience living in Denmark, it is much more pronounced there.