[JumpCrisscross]

> We should expect to be able to install whatever software we want on hardware we own

Were I Apple's lobbyist, I would be thrilled for this to be the counterargument. Because while noble, it's practically unworkable, generally unpopular and a flytrap for technologists who might otherwise be swayed to a moderate position.

[arrrg]

It‘s not at all practically unworkable. I don’t really get why you think it is?

It would be perfectly sensible to force large platform vendors to let you install arbitrary software. No problem at all. Doesn’t mean that also has to apply to, I don’t know, refrigerators with WiFi. Or cars.

[JumpCrisscross]

> It‘s not at all practically unworkable. I don’t really get why you think it is

General-purpose computing is workable. General-purpose computing on any hardware you own is not. Government regulations prohibit tampering with most emissive hardware, for instance.

[rekoil]

General-purpose computing on devices marketed as general-purpose computing devices should be a no-brainer for regulators.

Cars, electric scooters, boats, anything where there's other conflicting safety regulations I fully agree that a manufacturer doesn't need to provide the general public with full software access. I still think even in those cases there needs to be some regulation that ensures manufacturers allow independent, qualified, repair shops to effectively repair broken tech.

[kolinko]

I would consider a phone as damgerous as a scooter, if not more - considering the amount of private information in it and the access to bank accounts it grants. The damage that can be incurred by malware in a phone can ne greater than a medium speed accident on a scooter.

(At least me, personally, I’d prefer to hit a wall with my car at 60-70kmph than to have a malware on my phone. And I said that after being in more than one serious car accident)

[rekoil]

> I would consider a phone as damgerous as a scooter, if not more - considering the amount of private information in it and the access to bank accounts it grants.

App sandboxing protects you from apps trying to access your information without your say-so, I'm not advocating for Apple to allow these third party apps to bypass the sandbox.

[kolinko]

Is there a platform that managed to implement a decent sandbox without a review process a’la Apple?

Android definitely fails in this aspect, if you look at stats on viruses etc.

[JumpCrisscross]

> General-purpose computing on devices marketed as general-purpose computing devices should be a no-brainer for regulators

Since when have iPhones been marketed as such? Apple goes out of its way to promote its walled garden.

> Cars, electric scooters, boats, anything where there's other conflicting safety regulations I fully agree that a manufacturer doesn't need to provide the general public with full software access

Delineating this is hard. iPhones contain modem chips, for instance.

Again, I'm not arguing against the principle in general nor even specifically when it comes to Apple. Just the framing of being "able to install whatever software we want on hardware we own."

[rekoil]

> Since when have iPhones been marketed as such?

Prove to me that Apple has never marketed the App Store or the fact that you can run non-Apple software on an iPhone. If you can do that I'll drop this argument immediately.

> Just the framing of being "able to install whatever software we want on hardware we own."

But I'm specifically not saying that, I'm saying hardware sold to me with the promise that I'll be able to expand its functionality via software. Regardless how you want to try to spin it that's what general-purpose computing means.

I'm saying that if you want to sell a product which relies on software written by other people (that are not the vendor) to be successful, then you have to go the whole way, you can't then say "ah but see actually I'm the only one that can decide WHAT can run on your device, and you have to pay ME forever for the pleasure of running anything on it!". You can put up road blocks if you want, but you've sold me a device intended to be expandable via software, a general-purpose computing device, not a purpose-specific device.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Prove to me that Apple has never marketed the App Store or the fact that you can run non-Apple software on an iPhone

Being able to install third-party software does not make the iPhone a general-purpose computer. Apple never marketed its devices as general-purpose computers. The original iPhone didn't even allow third-party apps. (Had they, there would be a false marketing angle to play. But they didn't so there isn't.)

> if you want to sell a product which relies on software written by other people (that are not the vendor) to be successful, then you have to go the whole way

This is the debate. Restating a position isn't argument.

[arrrg]

You don’t have to go down any of those definition rabbit holes. It doesn’t matter because you can count the platforms that really have an impact on probably one hand.

Windows, macOS, iOS, iPadOS, Android. I’m up for including game consoles on this list.

Let everybody else be all closed and only require them to open up when they become more important/widespread.

[CaptainFever]

Can't those cases simply be exempted from the requirement?

[JumpCrisscross]

> Can't those cases simply be exempted from the requirement?

Congratulations, you've turned a discussion about Apple's anticompetitive actions into a multi-industry free-for-all demanding and drafting exemptions. Hence why I said this is lobbyist-of-the-year material.

[refulgentis]

HN tends to go down extreme rabbit holes that anyone with professional legal expertise would smile at near-immediately due to it coming across as earnest and naive.

Here, we see a flippant comment consume tons and tons of replies, because we tend to think of laws like code. Absolutist, and if the absolutes are wrong, we'll patch.

Which then leaves you open to recursive arguments about patches and unpersuasive railing about regulation being ineffective, lobbyists, etc etc.[^1]

I think this situation might be a bit of a wake up call. Apple decided to implement a maliciously compliant solution, and it's immediately obvious to all concerned they didn't fulfill the spirit of their obligations, and there will be consequences. Not necessarily negative ones. But this isnt going to get delivered with no changes while the EU stays quiet.

[^1] "If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts; if you have the law on your side, pound the law; if you have neither the facts nor the law, pound the table."

[JumpCrisscross]

> we see a flippant comment consume tons and tons of replies, because we tend to think of laws like code. Absolutist, and if the absolutes are wrong, we'll patch.

To be fair, this resembles a lot of lawmaking, too.

> Apple decided to implement a maliciously compliant solution, and it's immediately obvious to all concerned they didn't fulfill the spirit of their obligations, and there will be consequences

Agree.

[wvenable]

Why not WiFi refrigerators or cars? I would love to tweak the software in my car -- it's hopelessly out of date.

[rekoil]

Conflicting regulations when it comes to cars, and for WiFi refrigerators (meaning any gadget that runs some sort of OS) I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think it makes sense to make different regulation for general-purpose computing devices and purpose-specific devices.

Though if you ask me, software should be covered by right-to-repair. I should have everything I need to technically be able to support my own device when the manufacturer throws in the towel. Unlockable bootloader, source code for device bring-up, drivers, but not necessarily an OS, just the device specific stuff.

[wtallis]

How would you classify a PlayStation: general-purpose computing that should be required to be open, or purpose-specific that can be allowed looser regulations?

[izacus]

PlayStation 3 ran Linux just fine so it can be classified as a computer and forcefully opened. Not sure why do you all think this is some "gotcha" when the corpos you defend proved you otherwise already.

[wtallis]

I'm not defending the corporations, just bringing up an important borderline case that any regulatory proposal needs an answer for.

On the one hand, the hardware of a PlayStation is pretty close to a general purpose PC and some iterations have been claimed as such by Sony for tax reasons. On the other hand, a great many PlayStation customers would be up in arms if regulators forced the platform open in any way that weakened the security that their competitive multiplayer experiences are built to rely on.

[rekoil]

PlayStation is a games console, it's a purpose-specific device. I think there needs to be regulation there as well, but not the same regulation as for general-purpose computing devices like the iPhone or Android, or whatever Apple are slowly trying to turn MacBooks into.

I don't pretend to know all the answers, my stance is that the reason our society is where it is today is at least in part because computers have been computers, and not this "my way or the highway" approach Apple has for the iPhone.

[JumpCrisscross]

> PlayStation is a games console, it's a purpose-specific device

Why isn't the iPhone a smartphone, a purpose-specific device?

> there needs to be regulation there as well, but not the same regulation as for general-purpose computing devices like the iPhone or Android

This shifts the game from defining what Apple can and cannot do to what a general-purpose computing device is. And that's the point. That's why this framing is great if you're Apple. A specific discussion regarding tangible outcomes morphs into an arcane debate over jargon and philosophy.

[itg]

>it's practically unworkable

I'm able to install whatever software I want on my mac, windows, linux, and android device. What exactly about it is "unworkable"?

[JumpCrisscross]

> I'm able to install whatever software I want on my mac, windows, linux, and android device. What exactly about it is "unworkable"?

The unworkable bit is the breadth. Being "able to install whatever software we want on hardware we own" means every computer is a general computer. That includes the one in your cable box, on your cellular modem chip, in your car.

[rekoil]

Not if those devices aren't marketed as "being able to install new software".

[JumpCrisscross]

> Not if those devices aren't marketed as "being able to install new software"

What does that mean, though? My thermostat updates itself OTA. So does my modem chip. And I can configure, to a degree, optional add-ons on my Subaru.

This is the problem with changing the argument to being "able to install whatever software we want on hardware we own." It's unworkable not because it's fundamentally flawed, but because its edges are fractally messy. You can absorb an infinite amount of time into delineating it. In the meantime, the thing you were actually going for--a competitive App Store--is forgotten.

[rekoil]

> My thermostat updates itself OTA.

I can't tell if you're being intentionally obtuse. It's pretty obvious from the discussion I am not talking about anything that has updatable software, I'm talking about things sold with the promise to be able to add broad new functionality in multiple fields. A thermostat may be able to add new methods of scheduling, energy saving, other means of control, integrations with other smart devices, but all with the singular purpose of controlling a radiator, under-floor heating or other heating device.

But if we're gonna entertain the notion somewhat, yes, if the thermostat allowed installation of non-thermostat related things like video streaming services, games, Twitter, or other apps that were allowed to run on the device to give it more use than at point of sale, and it was also marketed as such when sold, then yes, it was being sold as a (rather silly) general-purpose computing device and should be required to give users access to what they need to build their own software and run it on it, sans manufacturer control.

[COGlory]

"the hardware" in this case clearly refers to Apple products (namely iPhone)

[realusername]

> it's practically unworkable

That's how almost everything worked before the user hostile mobile takeover, not sure why it's not possible anymore. It's the previous state of affair and worked fine.

[mvdtnz]

Gosh I guess general purpose computers have never existed seeing as installing software is so "practically unworkable".

[rekoil]

This is certainly one of the takes of all time.

I want some of what you're smoking mate.