[thriftwy]

I wonder when you will arrive at the understanding that if Russia is not going to have more revolutions, then you are going to have to live alongside Russia on the tiniest of continents and it would be best for both sides to learn how.

Is's not like you're going in with a military action and capturing Volgograd, after all. Adolf Hitler could be neutralized by capturing Berlin. Good luck dealing with Russia that way.

[The_Colonel]

Learning to live is arming the eastern NATO border to the teeth. Russia has never stopped trying to expand westward, is still very far from giving up on its imperialism and strength is the only language it understands.

[BlueTemplar]

Not sure how much (more) arming to the teeth of NATO is needed when France / UK / USA have thermonuclear ICBMs.

The problem is what to do with the likes of Georgia and Ukraine (which has been deeply regretting giving up nukes against Russian/US/UK "protection" for some years now).

[thriftwy]

Then you will have a permanent war in Europe, get used to it and make yourself comfortable.

[The_Colonel]

Can you explain? European (NATO) countries will "provoke" Russia into invading by securing their internationally recognized borders?

So far, we have seen the opposite pattern of Russia messing with countries which didn't make it into NATO in time.

[thriftwy]

There is no good way out of the situation where both sides are armed to the teeth. The best bet is a political failure of one of the sides.

If that does not happen, these sabers will be rattling from time to time. If Russia's (and China's) immediate borders are packed with countries armed to their teeth, there would be wars.

Buffer states happen for a reason.

I believe USA kind of understands this (see how they reacted to Cuba) and EU surely understands this too (see how Sweden reacts to any signs of Russian militarization), but they have trouble projecting it on other countries or still believing they can coerce these countries into "dealing with it".

[The_Colonel]

> If Russia's (and China's) immediate borders are packed with countries armed to their teeth, there would be wars.

I like this Putin's style of passive threats like "there would be wars". Just say the threat explicitly, Russia would invade their western neighbors.

> Buffer states happen for a reason.

Ukraine was a buffer state, yet it was invaded by Russia three times in the last 10 years. People have now justified doubts about this model.

[thriftwy]

If these countries are "armed to the teeth", Russia will invade some of these countries. Both sides will point fingers at each other while some Eastern European homes burn. Eventually the prospect of horrible death while grasping the Western-provided arms will dissuade these countries from being armed to the teeth. I sincerely believe the preferred lifestyle of Eastern Europeans is sitting on a porch of their nice tiny house, not dying from a mortal wound in a ditch.

Arms do not win wars without people holding them, and even then, fighting off an agressor does not mean your country isn't ruined.

Ukraine was in the process of ditching its buffer state status by choosing a side. They bragged for a decade how they are going to do that. Needless to say it didn't go so well for them, and only them so far. Other countries in thir position turned out to be smarter as not to win the first Russian invasion target prize.

Please note that I'm not asking for a moral judgement because everybody else who may pass it has worse skeletons in their own closet than Russian Ukraine affair.

[kergonath]

> There is no good way out of the situation where both sides are armed to the teeth. The best bet is a political failure of one of the sides.

Look, we tried normalising relations. In the end, Russia just takes what it can. It’s lunacy to believe that everything would be better if European countries just rolled over, accepted being bullied, and just gave Putin what he wants. It’s insane.

[thriftwy]

I just don't remember any of those attempts. Which year was that? I remember the disastrous Obama's great reset which caused these relations to deteriorate at greatly accelerated rate.

I also remember how bad they were during COVID time, etc.

[petre]

We'll have another cold war, carefully watching each other like Koreans on both sides of the DMZ do. Russia likes frozen conflicts so that what they'll get, until it collapses again like the USSR did and like all empires do. The trouble with that is a bunch of unstable dictators with nukes instead of one czar with nukes.