[mealkh]

I found this article that seems to paint a contrasting picture. https://archive.is/BCd0w

"Commissioned by the American Recyclable Plastic Bag Alliance, the report acknowledges that the total number of plastic bags declined by 60% since the ban—as its backers hoped. But because shoppers still had to carry their groceries home, they needed alternatives. Mostly that meant switching from the thin plastic film bags to the heavier, reusable bags now sold in many supermarkets.

The problem is that most of these alternative bags are made of non-woven polypropylene, which takes much more plastic to make and isn’t widely recycled. And what about the supposed climate benefits? Well, the study finds that, owing to the larger carbon footprint of the heavier, non-woven polypropylene bags, greenhouse gas emissions rose 500%. The problem is compounded by the way people use these bags. Though intended to be reused many times, the report says 90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times. So they are piling up in landfills and homes. Think of your own behavior in misplacing bags around the house or forgetting to bring them when heading out for groceries."

[skrebbel]

> American Recyclable Plastic Bag Alliance

This is a lobby group. Their goal is to produce and sell as much plastic as they can. The more people reuse plastic bags, the less money they make. Their argument is worth as much as that of the tobacco lobby. That doesn’t mean they’re wrong, just that they sure won’t quote any ideas or statistics in favour of reuse.

Don’t forget, folks: “recyclable” is an extremely low bar. Most things are recyclable. But many recyclable products are still so expensive (and energy-hungry) to actually recycle that the term is borderline meaningless.

Reuse trumps recyclable by a wide margin and anybody telling you otherwise is either working in a very narrow set of industries (eg paper) or malicious.

[devoutsalsa]

Lobbying groups are important. Great work was done by the National Frozen Pizza Institute to educate us all on the health benefits of eating frozen pizza => https://web.archive.org/web/20120704101823/http://www.frozen...

[paulmd]

Very healthy except for 6-8th graders, you mean

[up2isomorphism]

Can we get to the fact without first pointing out they are your dislike? This is a very bad argument and gets you no where.

In this case, which part of the statement in the above claim is not true?

[hn_throwaway_99]

It's not really about the claim being "true" or "untrue". It's about being clear from the outset, based on their obvious conflicts of interests, that this organization is only going to report on study outcomes that benefit their perspective, even if they are true. For example, given all the evidence I've seen on this topic, I believe all of the following are highly likely to be true:

1. Disposable plastic bag bans significantly reduce plastic bag litter and its effects on urban quality of life and the environment.

2. Most reusable plastics bags are only used once or few times before they are discarded.

3. Given #2, the amount of fossil fuels used to produce the reusable bags makes them a net negative in terms of greenhouse gas emissions.

The basic problem with all discourse these days is that depending on your "side", you only talk about the items that benefit your viewpoint. American Recyclable Plastic Bag Alliance only talks about #2 and #3. At least the group referenced in the original article agrees that the current situation leads to more plastic being generated and should be corrected:

“Grocery stores, restaurants and retail shops should not be permitted to distribute plastic film bags of any thickness at checkout. Stores should be required to charge a fee of at least 10 cents for single-use paper bags. A 10-cent paper bag fee will limit the expected increase in paper bag use after a bag ban is imposed and may even reduce paper bag consumption altogether.”

[up2isomorphism]

It doesn’t matter nearly as much as you think where they are coming from as long as yourself follows on logic and facts. Almost every one in such a discussion is biased. You can still point out what they ignored or misled than merely stating a universal argument when you disagree.

[swells34]

The point isn't that the original commenter doesn't like them, it's that this is a lobbying group. As such, they have no credibility on this topic. So, in any discussion involving them, everything they say needs to be looked at as a ploy in support of their agenda, because it is their job to do that. To treat their word the same as anyone else's on this topic would be very stupid.

[lolinder]

Pointing out that research was paid for by an organization that has an inherent conflict of interest is an extremely valid argument. It doesn't necessarily mean that the research was biased or shoddy, but it absolutely should cause us to take their conclusions with a healthy helping of salt.

[up2isomorphism]

You will still need to point out the actual ignored facts or false claim to substantiate the bias claim, otherwise it is an extremely cheap argument that everyone else could use the same argument as most people represent some interest group.

[hn_throwaway_99]

That all makes sense to me, but I'd just add that another issue not discussed there is litter. I used to live downtown by a big grocery store, and close to the store there was a creek that ran by. Before the bag ban there were always tons of plastic grocery bags in the creek and along its banks. After the ban, I'm not saying the creek was pristine (it is an urban creek in a major American city, after all), but there was way, way less plastic bag litter after the ban, and it made the walkway that ran alongside the creek much nicer.

[WalterBright]

The D Foundation had our annual conference a few years ago in Ogden, Utah. There was something unusual about the city, something it took me a while to figure out.

There was an almost complete lack of litter.

I don't know how the city did it, but I was impressed, and it made the urban landscape much nicer.

[kyrra]

Sounds like a failure of not enforcing a broken windows policy.

[throwawaymaths]

A lot of times litter is not from littering. A home trash can's lid blows open in a strong wind and litter flies out. Trash escapes from an urban trash can. Trash flies out of the back of a garbage truck, etc.

[lolinder]

The biggest cause in my neighborhood is the pickup process itself: the machine lifts the can in the air, turns it upside down, shakes it, and hopes that it all makes it into the truck.

A lot of smaller stuff doesn't make it in, especially disposable plastic bags, which are basically little parachutes.

[pfdietz]

So, maybe Ogden, Utah's cleanliness was due to bear-proof garbage containers?

[Wowfunhappy]

How do cities in Japan avoid these problems?

[davidmurdoch]

The people and culture.

[Wowfunhappy]

How does that help if a trash can lid gets blown off?

[throwawaymaths]

fewer outdoor trash cans. People carry trash home or e.g. to a storefront with an public indoor trash.

[hn_throwaway_99]

Never a fan of suggested "solutions" that are laughably implausible. Even if you support public canings for everyone ever caught dropping a plastic bag, can we not pretend that something like that could ever be implemented in the Western world? Plastic bag bans can.

[johnnyanmac]

>can we not pretend that something like that could ever be implemented in the Western world?

it says a lot that we simply dismiss "don't break stuff" as am impossibility in the western world. Wonder what the Easter world does so differently.

[hn_throwaway_99]

I was referring to a legal solution to plastic bag littering, which is what "broken windows theory" refers to.

The differences in littering in, say, Japan, have nothing to do with legal differences, because they're cultural. Cultures differ, and they have benefits and downsides. Trying to implement a legal solution to bag littering in the US would work about as well as trying to implement a legal solution in India to get people to stay within their lane when they drive.

[Aurornis]

> Though intended to be reused many times, the report says 90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times. So they are piling up in landfills and homes.

I could see people forgetting these bags at home for a while as they adjust to their new normal, but the idea that they’re going to be buying these new bags ever other trip to the store because they’re piling up in a room at home for years is hard for me to believe.

Given that the conclusion of that article depends on people never getting good at reusing those bags and instead throwing them away or letting them accumulate forever at home, I have a hard time taking it seriously.

[BandButcher]

Super anecdotal but when i first moved to Austin Tx and went to a Walmart, they told me i had to pay for plastic or paper bags. I was completely thrown off and the cashier told me they did a "ban" on plastic bags, and that many people buy the "tougher" plastic bags and resuse them.

A week or so later i had bought resuable bags, like 2-3, and would always leave them in my car. It became 2nd nature to me almost instantly. Since them I've always used reusable tote bags until they break. I even have one from a party i threw more than 6 years ago that belonged to someone esle lol

Ive since move back home to a city that has no plastic ban and im literally the only person who brings tote bags into stores. The only downside now is i can sometimes look sketch as hell but yea idc i support resuable bags hopefully more people can minimize their plastic footprint in plastic bags or other ways

[dvngnt_]

I had a great time at the party you threw but I really need my bag back. you keep ignoring my calls

[dzhiurgis]

Now that I got used to reusable bag, touching plastic ones feels disgusting

[gruez]

>>the report says 90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times. So they are piling up in landfills and homes.

>but the idea that they’re going to be buying these new bags ever other trip to the store because they’re piling up in a room at home for years is hard for me to believe.

What's likely happening is that they go out to buy something, forgot their bag, and is forced to buy a reusable bag. If enough people are forgetful, the "90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times" seems very plausible to me.

[Wowfunhappy]

What happens to me, living in a walkable city without a car (something I'm proud of for environmental reasons):

• I'm walking to work / home / a social outing / etc, with no intention of going shopping.

• I pass by a store on the way.

• I now need a bag.

Could I always bring a bag with me when I go out? Yes, but I try to travel as light as possible because I'm walking.

[danielhep]

I'm also in a city without a car (and am proud of it), and also struggle with this. One thing that helped me a lot is to buy a few ultra lightweight packable bags. Ones that can be packed into a pocket in themselves. Then I put these in every backpack I normally carry with me. It helps that I rarely leave the apartment without a backpack.

[prmoustache]

Why do you need a bag to begin with if you carry a backpack? Is it always full?

[johnnyanmac]

mine mostly is. It's a tight pack for carrying my laptop and similar paraphernalia. It's not really means for storing more than a few small pieces of groceries

(note: this is rendered null anyway because I do need to drive everywhere in my suburb).

[alamortsubite]

My technique is simply to ask myself if I might need a bag while I'm out, and if so, take one with me. Works great!

[dfxm12]

• Bags aren't big or heavy

• What spur of the moment shopping are you talking about?

[crazygringo]

If you don't already carry a backpack or other bag, you don't have anywhere to put grocery bags. It's not like they fit in your jeans pocket.

And I do a lot (the majority?) of my grocery shopping spur of the moment. Basically when I'm on my way home and realize I have extra time and it's not so late that the grocery stores have closed. And my life is such that knowing whether I'll have time to shop that evening is entirely unpredictable.

[ta1243]

The reusable bags in the UK certainly do fit in your pocket (when correctly folded up)

[bane]

The problem is one more unique to being a walker in a city. You're out and about, maybe just walking to the park or something so you brought nothing with you, but the park you like is a 15 minute walk from your apartment.

Near the park there's a great bakery. You see they're having a nice sale on a box of a dozen croissants, and their croissants are the best in the city. So do you:

- Grab a couple boxes, and a reusable bag to carry them in?

- Walk 15 minutes home to get your bag, then 15 minutes back, then 15 minutes back home (45 minutes total) just so you don't pay $3 for a bag?

- Carry around a bag all the time even though you had no intention to buy anything when you left, and use it only a few times over the hundreds of time you leave your apartment?

[latexr]

I’m not the person you asked, but I’d do none of the above. I’d buy the boxes and carry them. They’re presumably perfectly ordinary parallelepipedical cake boxes, perfectly suited for carrying in your hands. There’s no need for a bag.

[dfxm12]

Carry around a bag all the time

As I was saying, this is not the hassle it seems like it is being made out to be. Setting that aside, a box seems like just as good a vessel to carry as a bag, so in this specific case, I really don't understand the issue. If this place has such good pastries and you know, you can plan ahead and pay full price.

If this really is somehow life changing savings on pastries I mean, yeah, taking some extra time walking won't do any harm.

[ruined]

usually when i'm walking in a city, i'll have a coat with pockets or a small bag with me, containing things like a water bottle, a snack, an extra layer, a book, maybe laptop. it's not hard to fold up a small cloth tote and carry that too.

[gruez]

>• What spur of the moment shopping are you talking about?

"Honey, can you get eggs on your way home? We just ran out"

[dfxm12]

If not being able to carry a carton of eggs in your hands a serious concern of yours, I think there are other issues at play...

[Wowfunhappy]

Bags are big enough that they don't fit in my pants or jacket pocket. I don't understand your second question.

[oftenwrong]

Some companies offer compact reusable bags that can be stored in a coat pocket. For example:

https://seatosummit.com/products/ultra-sil-day-pack - I've had a few different versions of this bag for years. There are also cheaper/bigger/different versions of the same sort of thing you can find online for "packable daypack".

https://nanobag.com/products/nanobag - I have heard good things about these, but I prefer a backpack because it allows me to be hands-free, or to use my hands to hold more items.

However, I would start by carrying a lightweight "single-use" plastic bag, and simply re-use it. Plastic bags are not as strong as these premium bags, but they hold up well enough to be useful in most scenarios.

[HPsquared]

Reusable bags are big and heavy to carry around everywhere. Ironically the old disposable bags are much better for this reuse scenario.

[orthoxerox]

There are reusable net bags that are very compact.

[tgsovlerkhgsel]

They aren't heavy, but they are big/bulky. You can't just stuff them in a pocket. Ironically, the "bad" plastic bags (thicker and bigger than standard US grocery bags, but still a single layer of soft plastic film) could be folded into a pocket, while the new "reusable" ones can't, making it harder to actually reuse them.

> What spur of the moment shopping are you talking about?

Groceries. It's common around here to shop often but in small quantities, because the grocery store is likely somewhere on the footpath from work to home, from work to public transit, or from public transit to home.

Which means you're either carrying the bulky bag with you all day, or using single-use bags. Or, of course, you could buy a car to follow the "stop whining just throw a few in your trunk" suggestions always posted /s

[dfxm12]

They aren't heavy, but they are big/bulky. You can't just stuff them in a pocket. Ironically, the "bad" plastic bags (thicker and bigger than standard US grocery bags, but still a single layer of soft plastic film) could be folded into a pocket, while the new "reusable" ones can't, making it harder to actually reuse them.

This is incorrect. There are reusable bags that fold into pocket sized. Ikea has them, among other brands. Now that you know, I'm sure you'll reevaluate your outlook on them, right?

Additionally, if you're coming back from work, you probably already have a bag to carry stuff you need for work that you can use to carry a "spur of the moment" amount of groceries or other bags. However, this sounds more like a regular occurrence you are neglecting to prepare for rather than a spur of the moment thing.

[cycomanic]

I'm confused, in all the places that I'm aware of (3 countries) supermarkets sell paper bags for cases like these.

Moreover if it is such an issue for you why don't you buy one of these soft thin fabric bags that essentially roll up into their own little bag and are small enough to always carry around?

Like these https://www.ulsterweavers.com/collections/roll-up-bags

[fooster]

Certainly in Canada where one time use plastic bags are banned the supermarkets do not provide paper bags. They will sell you reusable bags which are larger (and therefore more resource intensive to produce) which are often not reused. I have a huge collection of them at home.

[VancouverMan]

I've got some colleagues who live in apartment buildings in an area of Canada that's like that.

About half a year ago, they were telling me about how they're seeing more and more of those thicker bags in their buildings' large shared garbage dumpsters, rather than the much thinner plastic bags that used to be used for bundling garbage back when they were still readily available.

I wouldn't be surprised if it has gotten worse since then, as people have gradually used up the thin plastic bags they'd previously collected and used for bundling garbage.

[Wowfunhappy]

The problem with the roll up bags is they're still too bulky to fit in my pants or jacket pocket.

[graemep]

I wonder what the environmental impact of paper bags is? The paper has to come from somewhere.

[bmicraft]

Paper is literally renewable and also easily recycled

[didntcheck]

Sure, the disposal side of the story is probably better, but as I understand they require more energy to produce than plastic bags (at least the old thin ones), and anecdotally they get reused way less, partly due to frequent tears, but also ironically because people instinctively shove them straight in the recycling when they get home

[graemep]

The renewable bit is not straightforward because it means greater land use to produce. Similar problem to biofuels.

[raydev]

> If enough people are forgetful, the "90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times" seems very plausible to me.

Sure, and this definitely happened in my region of Canada where plastic bags were banned already, but eventually people will stop forgetting once their closet fills with too many reusable bags.

[dan_mctree]

We need supermarkets to provide places where people can donate or sell their excess reusable shopping so other people can pick them up and use. That should put a big dent in the necessity for people to make use of new bags if they didn't bring their own reusable bags

[matthewdgreen]

Our city banned single-use plastic bags. The result is you can have paper bags for 5 cents each, or you can buy re-usable plastic bags for $1-$2.50 each (usually tilted towards the higher end.) Nobody is forcing you to buy re-usable plastic, and it's expensive enough to dissuade people from buying too many.

BTW, the biggest outcome is that I use fewer bags in general, and just don't take a bag when I don't need one.

[Wowfunhappy]

For some reason, a lot of retailers around me in New York seem to only sell the "reusable" bags, with no option for paper. I don't know why, it's very annoying.

My other problem is I can't reuse paper bags as trash bags (because even a tiny amount of liquid will leak through). So now I have to buy plastic trash bags, which sucks because I do in fact care about the environment.

[matthewdgreen]

As far as I can tell, that's a retailer decision and not something mandated by the state or city.

But the real problem with single-use plastic bags is that they blow out of dumpsters and landfills. They're incredibly bad for the environment, in ways that re-usable bags and even larger trash bags are not.

[dotnet00]

The paper bags aren't that reliable though. They're fine if you're just carrying the groceries to/from your car, but then you're also likely to already have a bunch of bags/baskets laying in the car. They also suck for cold stuff (eg milk), as the condensation quickly renders them useless.

[alamortsubite]

Taxing the sale of reusable bags to fund a PSA campaign might be in order.

[gedy]

> the idea that they’re going to be buying these new bags ever other trip to the store ... is hard for me to believe.

Have seen these "reusable bags" that the store gives you? They are basically the same as before, just a lot thicker and more plastic.

They are not nice woven bags or something. People then seem to keep using them as trash can liners.

[starky]

They do pile up though even if you use them. I've never purposely purchased one of these bags, but have acquired way too many of them just from getting deliveries or picking up things I order in advance. I've disposed of so many of them after only a single use because I don't have room and will never use them.

On top of that, I've made the problem even worse because they are just horribly bulky to carry around if you aren't driving to the places you shop. Due to this bulk I went out and purchased some nice thin nylon bags that are easily pocketable so I actually use them. But they came in a package of like 30 when I've needed maybe 5 of them including the ones I've given to people.

[dazc]

In the UK, Waitrose sell a re-usable bag or £1 ($1.25). It's a good quality bag and you're not going to throw it away.

Not sure on the actual data but other grocery stores have gradually increased the price of re-usable bags to the point where they are cost enough to make you think twice about paying for them.

Seeing people awkwardly carrying random items back home without a bag is not uncommon.

[graemep]

I do reuse those but not all that many times.

I do still buy a lot of bags and I sometimes do not have one on me.

[eropple]

> the idea that they’re going to be buying these new bags ever other trip to the store because they’re piling up in a room at home for years is hard for me to believe.

One of the things that pushed me away from using Instacart was that they'd always bring groceries in the heavyweight bags.

I reuse them now that I stopped using Instacart, but I certainly collected a whole pile of them.

[BeetleB]

My reply will probably be lost in all the comments, but when they banned plastic bags here, many stores (Target, Safeway etc) introduced fairly thick plastic bags that they sell for 10c. The way they get around it is they label them as "reusable" - because they're quite sturdy/thick.

But other than being thicker and stiffer, they look just like the old plastic bags.

Most people I know don't know they're reusable (and probably don't care). So they use them as single use bags. It's only 10 cents.

Textbook case of unintended consequence of regulation.

Here's an example from WinCo:

https://peopleinparks.com/2019/02/07/dear-reusable-winco-bag...

[not_a_shill]

I reuse them once and throw them away, exactly the same way I did with the thinner bags.

[gambiting]

Really? Why? I have a bunch of thick Sainsburys bags that I bought probably 5 years ago and I still use them for shopping every week - they will have been used probably 200 times each, easy. No idea why I'd throw them out.

[not_a_shill]

I just use them like trash bags /bin liners. I have fabric reusable ones I just forget or are unable to bring half the time.

Re: throwing them out vs recycling them, our bags you can only recycle at the store themselves...so just a bit too much friction to bother with. I can't recall ever seeing or hearing of anyone recycling them that way either.

[gambiting]

I have a feeling we might be talking about different things. I'm talking about bags like these:

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DChcSEwjk8p3YqZKEAxVQZZE...

[not_a_shill]

They sell those kinds of bags here too, but these are the ones that a lot of people in this thread are talking about

https://www.northjersey.com/gcdn/presto/2019/06/07/PNJM/74a3...

[samdunham]

Exact same thing here. I reused the thin plastic bags as trash can liners. And I use the new, thicker ones, the same way. I'm contributing exactly the same number of bags back into the environment, they just have a whole lot more plastic in each bag.

[inpdx]

Suggestion - reuse them.

[revscat]

Is this something you are proud of?

[seanmcdirmid]

If I’m driving in my car, no problem. But I often go to the store by foot from somewhere else and am unprepared. The disposable bags are only like 8 cents anyways.

[eckesicle]

https://i.imgur.com/GKMjP7p.jpg

Maybe I’m an outlier but I have another 3-4 of these bags of bags at home with reusable bags. Most people I talk to have the same.

I do refill my car with them occasionally, but I either forget to bring them or do grocery shopping at unanticipated times and don’t have a bag with me.

[crazygringo]

Exactly this.

Heavy duty plastic bags might work great if you always keep them in your car.

But I live in NYC where you carry everything by hand -- and people certainly aren't always carrying empty bags with them, the way you might if you had a trunk.

There are two supermarkets I go to where they don't have paper bags, but will charge you $0.25 to $0.45 for a heavy duty plastic bag (two sizes).

I'd say that about a third of the time the person in front of me buys between 1 to 3 of them.

So at least at those locations, the overall usage of plastic has gone way, way up compared to the old thin plastic bags.

[1980phipsi]

There was just an article about how this happened in New Jersey as well.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/01/25/new-je...

[crazygringo]

Oh wow -- "New Jersey's plastic consumption triples after plastic bag ban enacted, study shows".

And most people drive there. In NYC it might be even worse than just tripling.

[cratermoon]

That article sources the same report commissioned by the plastic industry lobbying group, so take it with a large grain of salt.

[Wowfunhappy]

...wait, wouldn't the plastic industry be delighted that people are using more plastic?

[dashundchen]

Yes, which is why they'd have a interest in publishing studies that make bag bans look useless or counterproductive, because they want to persuade people not to pass or to repeal bans.

[phatfish]

Indeed, which is why it is strange they are pushing this narrative that reusable is "bad", rather than keeping quite.

[bbarn]

There are a number of bag that pack down to self enclosed things smaller than a phone. When I lived in Chicago, and rarely drove anywhere, I had two of them in my coat pocket.

Summer time I was always biking anyway, and used my backpack.

[Wowfunhappy]

> There are a number of bag that pack down to self enclosed things smaller than a phone.

Are the bags of a reasonable size when expanded? Can you please link me? I've never found anything both big enough to be useful and small enough to keep in my pants pocket at all times.

[cycomanic]

Ijust linked above. I never used these specifically, but similar. Plenty big enough (definitely better for carrying things than disposable plastic bags)

https://www.ulsterweavers.com/collections/roll-up-bags

[Wowfunhappy]

Those are too bulky unfortunately. If I walked around with one of those in my pants pocket, it would look like... well, you know what.

[Fluorescence]

These are the type I use:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Zuimei-Reusable-Waterproof-Lightwei...

They fold flat and wouldn't cause much bother in a pocket but I personally don't like anything at all in my pockets. I keep them in my satchel and they are unnoticeable in one of those flat pouch sections that are pretty useless for anything even as slim as a wallet or phone.

They won't last forever but good for a few years so far. They have survived when I have stocked up on canned goods.

[dfxm12]

But I live in NYC where you carry everything by hand

In the NYC I've been to (and large city I live in), everything is carried in a back pack, laptop bag, shoulder bag, etc.

[Wowfunhappy]

I live in NYC and I don't carry a bag when I go out, which is the problem. I don't think this is entirely uncommon.

[dfxm12]

Now that you understand the problem, you can address it :)

[crazygringo]

That's what I meant by carrying by hand. In bags.

But a lot of people aren't stashing 2 or 4 reusable grocery bags in their laptop bag. And people often aren't carrying any bag at all.

[bmicraft]

Why would you ever unexpectedly need four bags in addition to your backpack or whatever? Or two for that matter.

[crazygringo]

When wouldn't you?

When I go grocery shopping, I'm buying probably 20 pounds of veggies, meat, milk, cheese, eggs, etc. along with bulky items like tortilla chips. If you use the woven plastic bags that you carry in your hands (like the old plastic bags but twice the size), you need 4 -- two for each hand.

There are also the jumbo super-heavy bags you get from e.g. FreshDirect where you only need one and you sling it over your shoulder, but those things are huge even folded up and I don't want to be carrying around one of those regularly. Folded, they're thicker than my laptop...

[superrad]

Do you not plan to go grocery shopping or do you always do it on the spur of the moment? I'm not sure what the issue is. If you need to pick up something small from the store on the way somewhere you can definetly get a small always carry on you bag that will fit in a pocket. When you're going to actual go grocery shopping just bring the bigger reusable bags. If the purpose of the journey is shopping it's not inconvenient to carry those bags and you'll have to carry the grocies back anyhow.

I get that it's less conventient to have to remember a bag but it's not some insurmountable task and it does seem to reduce the amount of plastic bags that get caught by the wind and blow around as trash.

[onlyrealcuzzo]

Why doesn't NYC have paper bags?

[crazygringo]

Some stores in NYC do, but it's up to the store.

In my experience, higher-end national chains offer paper bags for $0.05 each (Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, etc.) and don't sell the $0.50 plastic ones at checkout, while the local chains (FoodTown, Associated, etc.) only sell the plastic ones and don't offer paper.

I have no idea why.

[rayiner]

Yeah, at $0.50 I’m just going to buy a few and throw them away after. It’s not worth $1.50 of my time to shlep a bag to the grocery store. You’d have to make the bags a lot more expensive to influence primary behavior.

[phatfish]

When I went to Germany for the first time in around 2009 they didn't have any bags at the grocery store checkout. You either carried you shopping in your arms or took one of the cardboard boxes they brought out from the deliveries, if there were some left.

You remember your own bags after that.

At that time in the UK free disposable bags were in full force. Although i do remember when i was young we used to take shopping home in cardboard boxes stacked at the front of the store in the same way as they had in Germany still.

[dctoedt]

> It’s not worth $1.50 of my time to shlep a bag to the grocery store.

We keep a few reusable bags in the way-back of the (cross-over) vehicle; it's now a habit to grab the bags as we're getting out of the car in the grocery-store parking lot. Then after we get home and put the groceries away, we return the bags to the way-back of the car before closing the garage door.

So it's not a big deal.

[Retric]

Misplacing bags in your home is unlikely to continue indefinitely. If nothing else you would run out of room.

So it’s likely for someone to have many bags used a few times and lost and the remainder get used a great deal. Therefore what’s important is the average amount of reuse not simply what happens to individual bags. A single bag used 1,000 times makes up for a 9 used a 2-3 times.

[marcosdumay]

Yes, when they take up too much space, people will throw them on the trash.

Or are you expecting a different result?

[beej71]

I guess I was hoping that eventually they'd throw a few in their trunk.

[warkdarrior]

Why would one throw their trash in the trunk??

[Retric]

Reusable bags aren’t trash. So, by placing them in the trunk people save money compared to buying ever more of them.

[tgsovlerkhgsel]

> If nothing else you would run out of room.

Yes, from time to time you realize that the entire box full of reusable bags isn't going to be reused. Then you take one of them, stuff it with the others until it's full, and stash that as the "maybe I'll reuse those".

Then you take another one, fill that one with the rest, and put it in the trash.

[Thorrez]

Is it possible to use a bag 1000 times? California's SB 270 says:

> It shall be capable of carrying 22 pounds over a distance of 175 feet for a minimum of 125 uses.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...

[beej71]

It's really not easy for me to compute how many times each of my canvas bags has been used. But it's probably about 200 on average, since I've been doing this for over a decade and I've only had one canvas bag fail to death.

I'd bet 1000 uses is within the realm of possibility, but you'll probably need to do some repairs along the way.

[Thorrez]

Oh, I wasn't thinking about canvas bags. What I was thinking about, and what the law is about, is the thick plastic bags I've seen at e.g. Safeway checkout that they charge 10 cents for.

Buying these thick plastic bags seems to be what the checkout line guides people to do. Buying a canvas bag would require extra effort. People generally take the path of least resistance.

[aeternum]

I've thrown away a ton of polypropylene bags because stuff leaked or you just accumulate too many.

Those bags are so thick that throwing away one is like throwing away 500 of the other super thin plastic bags. There's no way the equation makes sense for most people no matter how much we want to believe it.

[matthewdgreen]

I don't think you should throw away polypropylene bags because they got a little dirty. They're easily washable.

That said, the main benefit of these heavier bags is that they tend not to blow out of dumpsters and landfills in the wind, the way thin single-use plastic bags do. A bit of plastic in a landfill isn't great, but entire forests and waterways choked with plastic bags is vastly worse. E.g.,: https://www.frontiersman.com/opinions/spectrum-plastic-bags-...

[erik_seaberg]

A few quick searches suggested that only silicone snack bags are dishwasher safe.

[matthewdgreen]

Why would you wash bags in a dishwasher? Put them in the clothes washing machine on cold. Don't put them in the dryer.

[aeternum]

There's no way the average person is washing their grocery bags in the clothes washer.

Sounds like that could coat your washer with microplastics that might end up in your clothes and against your skin all day. That may not be the best idea.

[matthewdgreen]

Pretty much any synthetic fabric, which includes most fitness wear, is going to fill your laundry and washer with microplastics. However the real problem occurs in the dryer, which heats the stuff and produces dust. Running some relatively solid plastic bags through a washer (only) is probably 999 on a list of 1000 things to worry about regarding microplastics in your home.

As far as what “the average person will do,” I’ve never personally had a hygiene problem with reusable plastic bags that couldn’t be solved with a sponge or a Lysol wipe in 30 seconds. But if the OP is really suffering with large numbers of dirty bags, a gentle wash with detergent is the simplest and most effective answer. At a certain point, it feels like this discussion is more about preferences re: reusable bags and less about trying to solve problems.

[phatfish]

You throw them because something leaked. Why not clean it with a cloth?

I've used the same 3 long lasting plastic bags for the weekly shop for around 4 years now. I take a couple of thinner ones I reuse when just going to get a few things. Ive had some of those for years as well.

I'm in the UK, we went to Canada last year. It was crazy how much disposable plastic i saw walking out the doors of Costco and other large grocery stores. Also, Costco put milk in a plastic bag in Canada! Why not a rigid plastic container that can be recycled?

[crazygringo]

They can just get nasty though.

When the inside has gotten coated with sticky chicken salmonella juices because of a leaking package, and the bottom has gross dirt from sitting on the sidewalk and subway, and the bag is made of a woven plastic so that the juices and dirt seep in...

...it's entirely understandable that you just trash it rather than attempt to clean it. This is what you carry food and fresh produce in, after all.

[phatfish]

Sure if it is horrible it might be necessary, if warm water and disinfectant spray don't sort it out. We have not had our grocery shopping leak that badly that I can remember.

[crazygringo]

It really depends on the supermarket. If they sell the expensive chicken that comes sealed in rigid plastic from the "manufacturer", it doesn't leak. But that's double the price. When you're buying the normal-priced chicken that the supermarket apportions out into those yellow styrofoam trays that they then seal in plastic themselves... ugh. Chicken juice everywhere.

[phatfish]

I see, meat packaging is different in the UK. Styrofoam trays are not used in any major stores, they all use the same rigid sealed containers, even the cheap options.

Butchers cutting meat for you is much less common in store now, those that do have a butchers counter wrap it in a plastic bag which seals it pretty well. Small independent shops might do it differently.

I think in general those styrofoam trays are not used much because they can't be recycled. You still find them used by some takeaway food places though.

[lotsofpulp]

> Why not clean it with a cloth?

How much does it cost to clean the cloth? How much time and effort relative to the cost of the bag?

This is why targeting specific products to reduce consumption is stupid. Just hit all fossil fuels with higher and higher taxes if you want less fossil fuel consumption. Or all products an externalities tax if you want less waste.

[tgsovlerkhgsel]

Because cleaning it is a PITA and I've accumulated dozens of them when I went shopping and didn't have a bag/didn't have enough bags and was forced to buy another heavy "reusable forever" bag because the lighter options were either banned or removed to appear more green.

[browningstreet]

I have 3 Whole Foods reusable bags I’ve been using for over 15 years. I just don’t believe people are using these only 3 times and throwing them away.

[Thorrez]

If you go Whole Foods and watch a checkout station, what percent of purchases will reuse a bag vs buy a bag. I think the ratio of reuse:buy will be less than 3:1.

[bane]

That's very interesting finding. I can see how people buy the reusable bags more frequently than might be originally though. I often forget that I brought my bags in from my car and have to mentally remember to keep a couple in my trunk for the times when I'm out shopping. To be honest, because I have a car, when I forget, I just forgo the bag entirely and load everything in my trunk anyways.

I've settled on using the catering bags from Panera because they

- come with catering orders anyway

- are incredibly heavy duty, I've used them dozens of times and they still are in great shape

- are very large

- usually just get trashed after the lunch

My workplace caters lunches once a week or so, and so there's been plenty of bags leftover at the end so...

edit a quick look on ebay shows that there's a secondary market for the bags where they go for around $10 each.

[snakeyjake]

>Though intended to be reused many times, the report says 90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times.

This is easily fixed. I know because I fixed myself and if I can change this behavior anyone can.

I've been using the same three cloth bags to carry my groceries once per week for over ten years.

That's, at a bare minimum (because they hold more), 1,560 plastic bags not used.

How does the carbon carbon footprint and greenhouse gas emissions of 1,560 plastic bags compare to the three "Earthwise EXTRA LARGE Grocery Bag Beach Shopping Tote HEAVY DUTY 12 oz Cotton Canvas Multi Purpose 20" x 14" PROUDLY MADE IN THE USA (Natural)" that I purchased for $13.99 for in 2012?

Yes, it took me a while to get in the habit of using them. A frustratingly long time. But it happened.

My county recently banned ALL plastic bags so for the occasional drug store or gas station purchase that used to come in a plastic bag I purchased a packable tote that stuffs down to the size of a pack of playing cards and keep it in my center console of my car.

That habit was established instantly.

I know for an unassailable and irrefutable fact that bans work because I am a volunteer watershed steward. It is my job to poke around storm drains and shorelines in my little section of the Chesapeake Bay to make sure they are clean. Less than 90 days (four big cleanup pushes per year) after a styrofoam ban was enacted several years ago the amount of styrofoam I was personally responsible for picking up off the shoreline plummeted from "a depressingly large shit-ton" down to almost nothing.

[avgcorrection]

And no one was surprised.

Still a wide success for the Environmental Theater: focus all attention on plastic bags (why so specific? plastic is used in way, way too many things already), which is used by consumers. It doesn’t matter if the use of plastic is reduced.

Just spin the wheels and point fingers. It’s much simpler than solving environmental problems.

[atlantic]

Along those lines: instead of banning plastic bags, or bottles, or straws, or whatever, why not simply ban plastic altogether? People managed to do without until the 1950s. Is there any use case for which there are no alternatives?

[DavidWoof]

> Commissioned by the American Recyclable Plastic Bag Alliance

AKA the lobbying group for plastic bag manufacturers, a group whose entire purpose is opposing plastic bag bans, quoted by the WSJ editorial board.

This is about as bad a source as one could possibly imagine.

[inpdx]

"the report says 90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times."

I'm deeply skeptical of this. Who buys a reusable bag then tosses it? I've only ever thrown away one or two that got rips.

[yunwal]

The scenario is this: you show up to the grocery store and you don’t have a reusable bag today. Maybe you forgot to re-stash it in your car after bringing in groceries last time, maybe you walked there and don’t carry a bag on you.

If you live in a state with a single-use bag ban, your options are: buy a reusable bag for 50 cents, or travel 15 mins round trip to grab one of your bags.

Once you get home, you note that you already have a dozen reusable bags so you throw it away and stash one of your existing ones for next time.

I use reusable bags a lot, and did even before single-use ones were taxed, but maybe 5% of the time, I show up to the grocery store having forgotten one. I’m almost certain if I were in a state with a single-use ban my footprint would be higher (especially because I normally use paper bags when I forget, which have a negligible environmental impact).

IMO, the entire ban was a gift to the plastics industry. I’m sure the margins on these reusable bags are much higher.

[CoffeeOnWrite]

I live in CA where we have a ban on single-use plastic bags. We still have single-use paper bags. So your footprint would be the same here, not higher.

[yunwal]

That makes sense and I’d support that. In New York and New Jersey all single-use bags are banned and I’m almost positive it’s counterproductive. Especially in NYC where many people aren’t using cars to grocery shop and can’t keep a bag stashed

[CoffeeOnWrite]

Yikes. I occasionally forget bags, and appreciate that we can get paper bags here for 20-25 cents. I also reuse those paper bags once or twice, and then use them for collecting compost on my countertop, and then throw the whole bag in the big city compost bin. This system means I don't need to clean or line a proper countertop compost container.

[inpdx]

We absolutely should price reusable bags higher then.

If I forget my bags and I don't have many groceries I'll just not use bags at all. Otherwise I'll use paper, which isn't great but it's not adding to plastic trash.

Also plastic bags are generally around a $1. I'm not throwing those away, economic reasons and on principle.

[yunwal]

The plastic bags in places like NYC are usually 25-50 cents. It’s stupid to force those on people when paper bags exist and barely have an effect on the environment. Also, half the grocery stores in the US only stock things like spinach in plastic containers or bags. There’s much lower hanging fruit than banning single-use paper bags.

[hn_throwaway_99]

I'm not skeptical at all. There are a lot of reusable bags like this, https://www.heb.com/product-detail/h-e-b-reduce-your-boot-pr..., which cost about a quarter (so not something that would really affect people's saving behavior).

My guess is it's something like that famous "daycare late fee" study that was widely discussed after Freakonomics reported on it, https://freakonomics.com/2013/10/what-makes-people-do-what-t.... Essentially, the fee wasn't high enough to cause parents to need to be on time, instead the fee was more like something to pay off their guilt, so adding the fee caused more lateness in parental pickups. I.e. before there was a late fee, parents would feel somewhat guilty if they were late. After the late fee, they didn't feel bad - after all, they were basically paying to be late.

My suspicion with these kinds of bags, which are very cheap and honestly feel just a bit sturdier than disposable baggs, is that the same dynamic is at play. People feel like "I'm a good environmentalist for reusing this bag once or twice" and then toss them.

[singlow]

I think one thing that may be misunderstood is that many of these chains have "reusable" bags that are very hefty plastic bags but are not the very durable reusable bags made of cloth/canvas or materials, the ones which are basically tote bags. I think the people who buy these more expensive bags tend to use them more than 3 times. But the ones that cost 99 cents at the register end up getting repurchased everytime someone forgets their bags. It took me a while to get into the habit and I know I have about 60 of those accumulated from the last 10 years of occasionally forgetting them. The bags I do reuse tend to get used many many times, but the rest might get used just once, because I already have a pile of them. If i remember my bags, I take the nice ones. If I forget, I have to buy new hefty "reusable" bags.

[echelon]

Me. I've tried again and again, but they all wind up in a pile at home. I forget to empty them and take them. They're never in the car when I need them.

I probably have had twenty to thirty reusable bags. Most of them get thrown away.

Not everyone is built the same way. I think this is hard/impossible for people with ADHD to manage.

[yunwal]

FWIW, I have ADHD, and once I amassed like 30 of these things, I kept as many as possible stuffed inside one of them in my car. Then, I had like 30 opportunities between then and when I ran out to remember to bring all my bags to the car again. It worked out well. Now my grocery store has a give-a-bag, take-a-bag stand which is even better.

[happytiger]

This seems like a setup to counter the bag bans by the plastic industry.

It’s not like paper bags, which are incredibly compostable and recyclable, didn’t exist before this entire plastic nonsense came to fruition. And they are readily available, domestically produced and work great.

All we need are better handles because they aren’t great for carrying long distances and break catastrophically instead of stretching like plastic. Not great.

[chimeracoder]

> This seems like a setup to counter the bag bans by the plastic industry.

The "study" cited was literally conducted and written by the plastic industry, so that's exactly what it is.

[coding123]

I use them exactly once more - cat litter waste

[anticensor]

I tend to reuse them twice: one more shopping and then becomes a trash can liner.

[wredue]

I bought rather large plastic totes. Way better than bags. Not as easy to store, mind you, but that’s actually beneficial cause it makes me bring them back out to the car. Forgetting my reusable bags was a major problem.

[JumpCrisscross]

If I remember correctly, the effects of that study were driven by grocery delivery. People would have the bags pile up due to a lack of a bag-return process. (Please double check, though.)

[cratermoon]

This is an interesting attempt by the industry most affected by the bans[1] to reframe the problem. Plastic bag bans address the nature of the system by applying a systemic solution, taking the responsibility off the individual. Here we see the industry lobbying group trying to reframe it to put the responsibility – fault, really – back on the individual. The report more-or-less is saying that the systemic solution doesn't work because individuals are irresponsible. The WSJ editorial doesn't even try to hid its bias. "Think of your own behavior", it says.

1 The ARPBA is connected to the Society of the Plastics Industry, an industry trade group.

[chimeracoder]

That "study" was commissioned by a trade group whose sole purpose is to lobby against plastic bag bans, and whose members consist of entities who have a direct profit motive in disposable plastic bag sales.

This is, almost literally, equivalent to citing a press release by Big Oil as evidence against anthropogenic climate change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recyclable_Plastic_Ba...

[gruez]

That's reason to be suspicious, but not a reason to dismiss it outright. Trials for covid vaccines were done by the manufacturers, who certainly have a profit motive in claiming they're safe and effective. Do you dismiss those trials for similar reasons?

[phatfish]

Is there an equivalent of the FDA for plastic bags?

[chimeracoder]

> Trials for covid vaccines were done by the manufacturers, who certainly have a profit motive in claiming they're safe and effective. Do you dismiss those trials for similar reasons?

One is a set of clinical trials, conducted with prepublished scientific methodology peer reviewed, independently evaluated by a regulatory agency, and subsequently independently studied by independent researchers. The other is a self-published press release.

Anyone who tries to draw an equivalence between the two either has no idea how the scientific method actually works, or is simply not arguing in good faith.

[niceice]

> Though intended to be reused many times, the report says 90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times. So they are piling up in landfills and homes. Think of your own behavior in misplacing bags around the house or forgetting to bring them when heading out for groceries.

I have a hard time believing it's 90%. Seriously?

They aren't that cheap and it's easy to keep track of them.

[gruez]

People aren't buying new reusable bags because they lost them. They're buying because they went to a store and forgot to bring a bag, and therefore forced to buy a "reusable" bag, even though they already have 10 at home.

[niceice]

You learn how to avoid that after it happens a couple times.

[yunwal]

Many don’t. Also, even if it’s only one in 10 times that you forget, it’s still much worse for the environment than using paper bags

[hn_throwaway_99]

> They aren't that cheap and it's easy to keep track of them.

I think some folks may be thinking of different types of reusable bags. Where I live the "default" reusable bags at the grocery store, which are basically pretty similar to disposable but bigger with thicker plastic, are 29 cents. They do sell hardier bags that you can by that are like $1.25. But I think tons of folks throw away those $.29 bags after one or two uses.

[lh7777]

Here, they're only 8 cents each -- not much incentive to treat them as reusable. Plus these "reusable" plastic bags are magnets for dirt and difficult to clean.

[zzzeek]

why would you cite a "study" that's commissioned by an industry trade group where their entire purpose for existing and for which they are paid millions of dollars is to ensure that plastic bags are not banned?

[zzzeek]

oh right, it's odd numbered days that HN is all "There's a reproducibility crisis! 85% of studies are complete garbage!" this is an even numbered day, HN is all "this study done by a fully biased source that's by definition a conflict of interest is fully iron clad and irrefutable!"

know your days on HN when each version of reality is in effect!

[dangus]

This is about as biased a report as one can get! An opinion piece by a Rupert Murdoch editorial staff citing a threatened industry conducting research on itself.

I’m highly skeptical of the idea that people are throwing away their reusable bags after 2-3 uses.

They’re also hand-waving away the concept of alternative lower carbon disposable materials, because it’s a plastic bag industry association.

[okl]

Couldn't imagine buying a damned plastic bag every single time I went shopping for groceries. I've been using the same fabric bags for 15 years. It is such stupidity, being to lazy to pack a bag, that humanity wastes resources on.

[gruez]

>It is such stupidity, being to lazy to pack a bag, that humanity wastes resources on.

It's spending resources for convenience. It's not fundamentally different than buying coffee at starbucks (therefore necessitating a plastic lined paper cup).

[teamspirit]

Both can be true. Either way, both are the reasons why we are where we are with regard to the climate.

[zzzeek]

you can bring a reusable cup to Starbucks and they will fill it for you, this is not anything new

[Wowfunhappy]

What percentage of people do you think actually do this?

[zzzeek]

wow where'd those goalposts just go? I was over here, at "buying at Starbucks *necessitates* (OP's term) using a plastic lined, paper cup". Which is false.

[Wowfunhappy]

The OP (who was not me) should not have said "necessitates". However, I don't think the distinction is significant given how few Starbucks customers use reusable cups.

[rayiner]

It’s convenience. People are paying a $1.50 surcharge to avoid the advance planning. That’s a no-brainer.