[handoflixue]

> we as a larger collective of workers never see that benefit

Child mortality has dropped from 50% to 1%.

We had a world-wide plague, and far less 10% of the population died.

We have computers. We have the internet. We have an infinite wealth of media.

We fixed the hole in the ozone.

We eliminated lead poisoning.

We are constantly making progress against world poverty.

We got rid of kings and monarchs and tyrants.

War is so rare, we don't even bother with the draft despite the army struggling massively with recruitment.

You simply CANNOT look back on history and think we don't have it better

[ToucanLoucan]

> Child mortality has dropped from 50% to 1%.

And mother-mortality is creeping upwards here in the states thanks to the cost of healthcare and Republican's ongoing efforts to control women's bodies.

> We had a world-wide plague, and far less 10% of the population died.

An inordinate amount of which was concentrated in America, because we've industrialized and commercialized political radicalization for profit.

> We have computers. We have the internet. We have an infinite wealth of media.

We have devices in our pockets that spy on us (also powered by AI), about five websites, and infinite derivative shit.

> We fixed the hole in the ozone.

That one I'll give you. Though the biosphere is still collapsing, we did fix the ozone hole and that isn't nothing.

> We eliminated lead poisoning.

Eeehhhhhh.... mostly? Plenty of countries still use leaded gasoline, and tons of lower-income people are still living in homes with both lead and asbestos.

> We are constantly making progress against world poverty.

In the developing world, maybe, but that comes with a LOT of caveats about what kinds of jobs are being created and how well those workers are being paid. China has done incredible work lifting their population, but not without costs that the CCP is only now starting to see the problematic side of. India is a similar story. And worth noting, both of those success stories, if you decide to call them that, are based heavily on some creative accounting and massive investment from the West. I don't think that's a bad thing but I'm also guessing said investors are expecting to be paid back, and it's finite and unsustainable.

Meanwhile, the developed world, workers are getting fucked harder than ever. Rent is now what, 2/3 of most people's income? People out here working three jobs and they still can't make a decent living.

> We got rid of kings and monarchs and tyrants.

We living in a different world here? We have an entire wave of hard-right strongmen making big splashes right now. Trump was far from an isolated thing. No they're not dictators... YET... but like, they don't usually start that way if you study your history.

> War is so rare, we don't even bother with the draft despite the army struggling massively with recruitment.

Uh, I think some Gazans, Ukranians, Iraqis, and Rohingya might take issue with that statement?

> You simply CANNOT look back on history and think we don't have it better

I mean yeah, I'm not one of those lunatics who think we were better shitting in caves. But that doesn't mean our society as it exists is not rife with problems, most of which have a singular cause: the assholes with all of the money, using that money to make the world worse, to make more money.

Hence being pissed about AI.

[handoflixue]

All of your objections are nitpicking about small, localized setbacks compared to massive global gains. As far as I can tell, we agree that the world is consistently getting better, and that these gains all come from technological progress. As far as I can tell, we agree that while the world isn't perfect, and some technologies do more harm than good, "technological progress" is a net positive.

I don't think you want to go back to a 50% child mortality rate, even if it somehow convinced Republicans to drop their crusade against abortions. I don't think you prefer World War 2 to the Ukraine war. I certainly don't think you want to reinstate monarchy and fascism across Europe.

If I'm wrong, then go ahead and tell me what decade you want to rewind to - what progress are you willing to give up?

If I'm not wrong, then... how does this at all lead to "hence being pissed about AI"? What's so uniquely evil about AI that we should give up the gains there, and assume it's a net evil in the long term, compared to everything else we've done?

[ToucanLoucan]

> All of your objections are nitpicking about small, localized setbacks

Small wars are still wars. No, we don't have any global conflicts with well-naturalized two-sides like the Axis and Allies of World War II, yeah, true enough. But that's not because war is done or distasteful: it's because global hegemonic capitalism now rules all of those societies and makes certain such wars don't happen between the countries that matter. Which is why we have the "police actions" in Vietnam and Korea, why we had Operation Iraqi Freedom, why we nearly went to war with South America over the price of bananas, etc. The colonial powers have essentially unionized and now use the bludgeon of the military might of America to keep poorer indebted nations in line, and if they fail to capitulate, a reason will be manufactured to unseat the power in that place, more often than not by force, more often than not with heavy civilian casualties and economic destruction, the rebuilding of which in turn will be financed by the West afterward so the poorer countries never have a ghost of a chance in hell of standing on their own two feet and making their own fucking decisions about their resources and people.

That is not due to technical progress. Technical progress is, if anything, jeopardizing that balance because the information now is much harder to contain about how absolutely fucked everyone in the global south is at basically all times.

> As far as I can tell, we agree that while the world isn't perfect, and some technologies do more harm than good, "technological progress" is a net positive.

I would absolutely cosign that, if said technological progress wasn't extremely concentrated in the wealthy nations on this planet, while the other ones are making do scrapping our old ships wearing tennis shoes and smoking the cigarettes we export them.

> I don't think you want to go back to a 50% child mortality rate, even if it somehow convinced Republicans to drop their crusade against abortions.

No I want Republicans to govern on conservative principles, not mindless culture war bullshit. And I'd also like the Democrats to stop governing on conservative principles because their opposition in the states is a toddler eating glue and screaming about pizza places on the floor of the fucking Senate.

> I don't think you prefer World War 2 to the Ukraine war.

All war is terrible, the scale is irrelevant.

> I certainly don't think you want to reinstate monarchy and fascism across Europe.

A lot of fascist-leaning voters in Europe might do it anyway though.

> If I'm wrong, then go ahead and tell me what decade you want to rewind to - what progress are you willing to give up?

I want the progress. I just don't want it hoarded by a particular society on our planet. We ALL deserve progress. We ALL deserve to earn a living commensurate with our skills, and we ALL deserve to be supported, housed, and fed, and we already have the resources to do the vast, vast majority of it. We simply lack the will to confront larger issues in how those resources are organized and distributed, and the fundamental inequities that we reinforce every single day. Largely, because a ton of people currently have a lot more than they need, and a small amount of people have a downright unethical amount, and the latter group has tricked the former group into thinking they can join the latter group if they only work hard enough, while also robbing them blind.

> If I'm not wrong, then... how does this at all lead to "hence being pissed about AI"? What's so uniquely evil about AI that we should give up the gains there, and assume it's a net evil in the long term, compared to everything else we've done?

It's not uniquely evil at all. It's banal evil. It's the same evil that exists everywhere else: tech industries insert themselves into economies that they don't understand, they create something that "saves" work compared to existing solutions (usually by cutting all kinds of regulatory and human corners), sell that with VC money, crush a functioning industry underneath it, then raise the prices so it's no cheaper at all anymore (maybe even more expensive) and now, half the money made from cab services goes to a rich asshole in California who has never in his life driven a cab. It's just that, over, and over, and over. That's all silicon valley does now.

[handoflixue]

> the scale is irrelevant.

Okay, seriously? You don't care whether 100 or 100,000,000 people die? You don't see ANY relevant differences between those two cases? It must be perfect, or else we haven't made any progress at all?

I don't think I can help you understand the world if you really can't understand the difference there

[ToucanLoucan]

You take ONE SINGLE POINT out of that entire post just to bitch about me making perfect the enemy of good?

My point isn't that 100 people dying isn't preferential to 100 million people dying. My point is that the 100 people died for stupid, stupid, stupid reasons. Specifically the ongoing flexes of the West over the exploited Global South.

[handoflixue]

Overall, I think you make a fairly convincing argument for all sorts of social changes - the problem is, that's not actually what you're advocating for.

> We ALL deserve progress. We ALL deserve to earn a living commensurate with our skills, and we ALL deserve to be supported, housed, and fed, and we already have the resources to do the vast, vast majority of it.

This is a great argument for UBI, or socialism, or... well, see, the problem is precisely that you never actually define anything actionable here. You've successfully identified a major problem, but your only actual proposal is "oppose AI artwork".

The problem is, "opposing one specific form of progress" doesn't actually do much at all to fix the issue. And indeed, if we had UBI or increased socialism/charity programs, then we wouldn't need to stop ANY form of progress.

And, of course, fixing the underlying issue is incredibly hard. We've tried Communism twice and proven that it's vastly more destructive. The Nordic Model seems to be doing well, but there's all sorts of questions on how it scales. And you're not actually proposing anything, so there's no room for the real, meaningful debate about those methods.