[yrral]

I'm not arguing whether the use of electricity is compelling or not.

I'm arguing that the unique energy demand characteristics of bitcoin mining allow it to support building renewable energy projects and balance electricity costs and thus it has effective positive contribution to the environment.

Whether it's used to mine bitcoins or cool a house is irrelevant, except that the demand for cooling a house is location and time sensitive, whereas bitcoin mining is cost sensitive. This flexible consumption gives it unique properties that support deployment of renewables.

Please explain what you mean by "false economy". Is the economy for skins in a game you don't care about "false" because you don't like that game?

[woodruffw]

> except that the demand for cooling a house is location and time sensitive

Not if someone paid me to do it. That's the point. If there was money in hauling ACs around the US and running them on the cheapest electricity the local market could provide, we'd have exactly the same false economy.

(Besides: the GP points out that Bitcoin appears to be sufficiently profitable on NYC electricity prices, which are not cheap. They also appear to be sufficiently profitable on "retiring coal plant" prices[1], which undermines any kind of unique incentivization of renewals argument.)

[1]: https://www.indystar.com/story/news/environment/2023/12/05/c...

[ephbit]

> Not if someone paid me to do it. That's the point. If there was money in hauling ACs around the US and running them on the cheapest electricity the local market could provide, we'd have exactly the same false economy.

How is such a purely hypothetical scenario useful as an argument?

It's like saying: "If nobody ever did physical harm to anybody, we could get rid of some part of law enforcement." Not useful because it's simply not the case and very likely never will be.

> They also appear to be sufficiently profitable on "retiring coal plant" prices[1], which undermines any kind of unique incentivization of renewals argument.

Bitcoin mining incentivizes any kind of generation that cannot be consumed by a more profitable process or use case. If the price of electricity on a mostly fossil powered grid is low enough, then Bitcoin mining will be profitable. Same goes for a mostly renewables powered grid.

There are two ways, politics can handle this:

A) Impose a high enough carbon tax on fossil generation. This will lead to higher electricity prices for the fossil grid, possibly making Bitcoin mining unprofitable. But it will also make other uses of electricity unviable.

B) Regulate that Bitcoin mining is prohibited under certain conditions (location, grid generation mix, ...)

B doesn't appear wise to me. Since it's highly subjective what kind of energy/electricity use one deems useful/legitimate. I personally find the use of a > 100 horsepower private car or a private jet totally illegitimate and would welcome regulation that drastically hinders these absurd uses of energy.

[ianai]

I think the underlying argument also misses the “willingness to pay” on at least a couple parts of the transaction. Specifically assuming the grid provider is going to pay you to use their electricity. (Transmission is still costly and maybe turning off capacity is a better option.) Further, missing the core “willingness to pay” for btc or any other cryptocurrency.

Gold worked as a currency as it was independently verifiable from either side of a transaction. Modern currencies work so long as they’re backed by credible assurances of their value. Ie passing off fakes is dangerous and they may be used as “legal tender.” (That term could itself be further defined via google.) crypto currencies seem to lack this functionality. (Not wanting to abide by any law outside core network mechanics is functionally close to establishing a new form of sovereignty. Only sovereignty doesn’t work like that.) Also note how hyperinflation is dangerous to the assurance of value of a currency. Similarly, any form of instability could shake those assurances.

Modern currency is also almost trivially, embarrassingly parallel.

[lostlogin]

Would you say that bitcoin mining is good for the environment?

[alchemist1e9]

Bitcoin mining is not just an economic activity but a catalyst for innovation in renewable energy. By inherently seeking the most cost-effective power sources to maximize profitability, Bitcoin miners are driving the demand for, and thus the development of, cheap, renewable energy worldwide. This process aligns perfectly with the goal of expanding humanity’s energy supply, a necessity for continued growth and technological advancement. The decentralized, uncensored nature of Bitcoin provides invaluable financial infrastructure on a global scale, while simultaneously incentivizing the energy sector towards efficiency and sustainability. Viewing Bitcoin mining’s energy consumption as a problem overlooks the broader benefit: it acts as a buffer in energy markets, ensuring there’s always an incentive to increase supply and reduce costs. Criticisms focusing on environmental impacts should address the real issue—regulating harmful energy sources—not curbing the innovative push for more and cheaper energy that Bitcoin mining embodies. Condemning Bitcoin’s energy use echoes failed collectivist approaches, ignoring the potential for positive, market-driven environmental and economic outcomes.

[tsimionescu]

There is a finite amount of energy though, so even if it would be optimal to have infinite supply, we can't.

And even if that weren't the case, your argument still makes no sense. Every watt that Bitcoin mining incentivizes is then consumed on Bitcoin mining, it's a zero sum game.

It's like building heaters in the desert: if you're willing to spend money for 1GW of electricity to run your heater, someone will build a 1GW plant for you. Now there is nominally one more 1GW plant in the world, but there is 0 extra available power, you're using up all of it to heat the desert.

[alchemist1e9]

Your argument reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of both energy markets and the role of Bitcoin in the modern economy. Asserting there’s a ‘finite’ amount of energy oversimplifies the issue and ignores the capacity for human ingenuity to tap into ever-more efficient and renewable energy sources. The notion of energy being a zero-sum game is a defeatist and static view that hampers progress.

Bitcoin mining, far from the wasteful ‘heating the desert’ analogy you propose, incentivizes the development of excess energy infrastructure that can be redirected or scaled based on demand fluctuations, acting as a catalyst for innovation in energy production and management.

Moreover, your argument smacks of a dangerous ‘divide the cake’ mentality, suggesting we should cap our aspirations and limit access to energy and technological advancement to maintain a status quo. Should we tell emerging economies that they must forego the benefits of modern technology because we’ve decided there’s simply no more room for energy growth? That’s not only patronizing but inherently regressive.

The beauty of Bitcoin and its underlying energy consumption is that it encourages the search for more efficient, cost-effective, and often greener energy solutions. This is not about wasting resources; it’s about driving forward a future where energy is more abundant, accessible, and sustainable for all. To stifle this under the guise of protecting resources is to deny the very essence of human progress and innovation.

[jcranmer]

> ignores the capacity for human ingenuity to tap into ever-more efficient and renewable energy sources

> Bitcoin mining, far from the wasteful ‘heating the desert’ analogy you propose, incentivizes the development of excess energy infrastructure that can be redirected or scaled based on demand fluctuations, acting as a catalyst for innovation in energy production and management.

You do realize that the article here is directly pointing to evidence that the bulk of large bitcoin mining operations are being driven from existing fossil fuel plants that seemed to be on their way to decommissioning?

This is what I don't like about your argument: it's a standard Bitcoin talking point, but people struggle to point to actual examples of Bitcoin mining spurring investment in renewable energy, while it's easy to point to actual examples of Bitcoin mining spurring investment in decommissioned/decommissioning fossil fuel power plants. The facts on the ground just do not support your argument, period.

[alchemist1e9]

Yes I am aware of the propaganda article contents.

Blaming Bitcoin for enabling these fossil fuel plants to continue is a red herring that distracts from the real issues: ineffective global energy policies and the threat Bitcoin poses to centralized financial systems. It’s easier for governments and critics to scapegoat Bitcoin than to admit their failure in promoting renewable energy or to face the uncomfortable truth that Bitcoin challenges their control over monetary policies. The narrative that Bitcoin only supports dirty energy is a convenient oversimplification, ignoring the broader economic incentives at play and the potential for technological innovation to drive a shift toward renewable energy sources. Let’s not mistake symptom for cause; the focus should be on fixing flawed energy policies, not demonizing a technology pushing for decentralization and innovation.

[anigbrowl]

Every industrial power user inherently makes the most cost-effective choices to maximize profitability. Some can't be selective, eg if you run trains or a steel mill you have to keep your power flowing whenever people want to move or prevent your furnace cooling off. But many industries can adjust production to fit power availability.

It's not clear to me that Bitcoin delivers sufficient economic value to justify the vast power demand. What utility do all these hashes provide, except to other people who bought into crypto trading? If there were some positive externality that'd be great, but there's no inherent value to crypto beyond the artificial scarcity.

[alchemist1e9]

Those who espouse the views you adhere to, which, let it be known, represent the prevailing orthodoxy, do so out of a marked deficiency in their comprehension of the true nature of currency. Their understanding is not founded upon rigorous study, nor is it informed by an appreciation of history and the lamentable legacy of state governance—the manifold tragedies it has authored, encompassing widespread destruction and the lamentation of countless souls. The auspicious circumstance in which humanity presently finds itself has been attained not because of, but rather in spite of, the modern nation-state and its fiat currency.

The worth of a decentralized and uncensored monetary framework is beyond imagination; it promises to unleash the inherent vigor and potential of an organic market-driven capitalism, unfettered and boundless. Such a system stands poised to precipitate the downfall of the fiat regime—a mechanism that has empowered governments of every stripe to engage in warfare and to subjugate their citizenry, not excluding even the most free and illustrious nation such as the United States.

[anigbrowl]

Spare me the GPT-generated pomposity, and try making an argument in your own voice instead. Are you seriously going to claim that all war has been caused by governments and private interests have never engaged in violence? What nonsense.

[alchemist1e9]

While I have not claimed that private entities are exempt from engaging in violence, the essence of the state, is it not, lies in its exclusive dominion over violence, ostensibly to foster a non-violent society?

This assertion is far from nonsensical; it is a veritable truth, one conspicuously absent from educational curricula, likely because states find the acknowledgment of their historical predilection for violence too ignominious to bear. Taxation stands as the state’s principal means of amassing resources. Yet, for those states compelled to engage in warfare, mere taxation proves insufficient. Here, the utility of modern fiat currency becomes apparent, facilitating the acquisition of resources beyond what a transparent tax rate would permit. Through fiat, the dilatory effects of inflation serve the dual purpose of either being dismissed as unrelated in the event of victory—perhaps offset by the spoils thereof—or, in the case of defeat, rationalized as a war’s consequence. Regardless, the result is the same: a surreptitious expropriation of the populace’s wealth.

State-initiated actions, notably famine and war, rank as the foremost causes of human mortality, surpassing even health crises and natural calamities.

The inception of the modern fiat system, marked by the establishment of the Bank of England, was explicitly intended for waging war. Indeed, the very creation of the contemporary British Pound was predicated on this bellicose objective.

P.S.: Please excuse the grandiloquence of my discourse; consider it a charming anachronism. I hail from the future, having spent several delightful decades marooned in the 1800s. Only recently have I elected to grace the early 2020s with my presence, and it appears my linguistic preferences have yet to acclimatize to the present era’s vernacular.