[appplemac]

Instead of a 4-day workweek how about setting reasonable hiring standards so that hundreds of thousands of people out of work, especially non-native German speakers, have a chance of getting past the job application screen.

Most jobs, even in tech, in DE currently require good knowledge of German, and "good" is being interpreted as near-native.

[enasterosophes]

As someone in an English-speaking country, I expect my colleagues to have good English.

We operate a helpdesk where clear communication is essential. Internally, we need to be able to quickly coordinate with each other on highly technical problems. If someone from another country came in with a bad attitude about "why do I need good English?" we would be more than a little hesitant about hiring them. It doesn't matter how good you are in tech, English literacy and fluency are foundational to everything else.

It would surprise me if Germans see this very differently.

[shiroiuma]

It IS different in non-English speaking countries. I live in Japan and work in an English workplace. The harsh reality is, if you want to hire talented in-demand people from outside your country, and your country's language isn't English, then you have to accommodate English in your workplace.

If you insist on using your local language only, then you will only have applicants from your own country: very few qualified candidates living outside Germany(/Austria) or Japan can speak those languages at a highly proficient level. If you have no need of importing professionals from abroad, that's OK; obviously it's easier to recruit people in your own country if you stick to your country's native language. But if you have a big talent shortage (as is typically the case for the tech sector), then not accommodating English will mean you can't compete against companies that are more international (i.e., they use English).

Like it or not, English is the most commonly-spoken 2nd language in the world; it's the international language of business and trade. College-educated professionals mostly all speak it these days. So if you want an international company, English it is.

[Czarcasm]

Flawless communication between team members is important when developing complex products. If my team was primarily comprised of people who only fluently speak German, and we are located in Germany, is it not reasonable for me to set a requirement that new candidates must speak fluent German?

Why are you entitled to have people speak your language, when you are the immigrant?

[Workaccount2]

They can speak German, the just can't speak it to a level that would fool a life-long speaker.

I work with plenty of engineers who speak English as a second (or even third) language. It's not really an issue.

[JAlexoid]

That's quite a stretch.

I have experienced breakdown in communications due to English not being good enough many, many times.

There's plenty of stories in comments here, about how bad offshore teams are. In most cases it's just a result of poor communications(due to lack of English proficiency). I've had to switch to other languages to explain some basic things about "what the client actually wanted", because of breakdown in communications.

[MrGilbert]

Because it's equally hard to find good workforce here in Germany. Besides, I expect every IT worker to be able to at least understand, if not speak English in a way that two foreigners can understand each other pretty well. How else did you acquire your knowledge? By only falling back to literature in your language? That seems kind of limiting if you are working in IT.

Your "entitlement" argument sounds a bit harsh for me, to be honest.

[FirmwareBurner]

>Because it's equally hard to find good workforce here in Germany.

1) There's no shortage of developers just a shortage of pay.

2) It's also hard to find doctors, that doesn't mean hospitals should compromise and let everyone practice who doesn't speak the language practice medicine just because there's a shortage.

Similarly, a lot of companies don't want to compromise on the language skillset, especially if most of their products are only for the local market that will be used mainly by other German speakers. So having devs not fluent in the local language and not understand the little details and semantics in requirements written in German, means a lot of time wasted with translations and clarifications.

It's the first argument HN brings against offshoring, saying it doesn't work because foreign devs don't understand the business and semantics of a foreign language or culture. Why do you think it suddenly doesn't also apply with foreign workers on-shore?

>How else did you acquire your knowledge? By only falling back to literature in your language? That seems kind of limiting if you are working in IT.

The limiting factor is not other developers, although it could be sometimes. It's the managers who don't use English on a regular basis like IT workers do, especially if like I said before, their company mostly caters to the German speaking market, and they wish to address developers directly for questions and feedback in meetings without only reaching out to the German speakers in the team to have to transalte further.

If you have a company meeting in the US or UK, is it not in the local language ? Why would any other country be different?

[shiroiuma]

>If you have a company meeting in the US or UK, is it not in the local language ? Why would any other country be different?

It's really simple: English is the international language of business. So a German IT professional can easily get a job in the US or UK, because every college-educated German speaks English fluently. Same goes for every such person in China, India, Russia, France, everywhere really. So US and UK companies routinely hire professionals from outside those countries.

The reverse isn't true: how many Brits or Americans can speak German well enough to relocate to Germany and get an IT/software job there? Almost none. So German companies are limited to candidates from Germany, Austria, and part of Switzerland and maybe a few people from some other nearby countries maybe. American and UK companies, OTOH, have all the best candidates from around the world available to them.

>1) There's no shortage of developers just a shortage of pay.

Sure, offering more money than any other company in Germany would probably get a company their pick of candidates. But it'll also increase their costs a lot and make them less competitive internationally. Don't forget though: German companies aren't just competing with other German companies for candidates: they're competing with companies in other countries, especially English-speaking countries. German candidates aren't stuck in Germany: they can easily move to English countries and work there too. Can German companies really afford FAANG-level salaries?

>2) It's also hard to find doctors, that doesn't mean hospitals should compromise and let everyone practice who doesn't speak the language practice medicine just because there's a shortage.

If you have people dying left and right because there's no medical treatment due to a doctor shortage, then yes. At some point, there really is a such thing as a labor shortage and you have to adapt.

[Barrin92]

As a native speaker my experience isn't that you require near native skills, I've worked with plenty of expats/immigrants who speak 'just' good German, but I'd rather increase language learning opportunities if necessary mandatory rather than lower standards.

This is still a country, not a back office for multinationals, people who talk to a German business should be able to have a conversation in German. This can be expected from immigrants. I've lived abroad myself and made sure I was proficient enough to be able to integrate. It's culturally vital as well.

[shasts]

Can confirm this.

My wife has a master's degree in engineering from a TU9(top 9 universities in Germany).And a B2 language certificate. She has not found a job so far. Been more than a year and half since she started actively applying. At times she ticks all the requirements in the job description, and still no luck.

She is planning to go to a bakery starting next week. The guy at the bakery was so surprised to see someone with master's degree in engineering ready to work at a bakery. So the perception and reality is different.

Unless you are in IT/software development, it is hard to get a job. Traditional engineering disciplines are hard to break into.

[mgraupner]

So she's got a degree in engineering from here in Germany, knows the language pretty well, but can't land a job here? I don't know where you are in Germany, but that sounds pretty much unbelievable. I live in Bavaria in a mid-sized town with 140.000 residents. I know companies here where almost half the staff is Indian/other nationality and it does not matter at all how good your German is (I know multiple Indians working there). I personally have a friend who is from Iran, she is going to be a chemistry professor soon here in Germany, so there ARE definitely opportunities for people who are not born here.

[shasts]

Well I have acquaintances employed here too. And my wife's case is not a single one.

I have a friend who migrated from India and his wife used to work for a pharma/biotech firm back in India and had some temporary work here in Germany, when peak COVID happened, when pharma companies were hiring a lot.

She already has a master's degree from India and she has been undergoing further trainings supported by Job center, and still no luck.

[mgraupner]

Amazing. Would you mind disclosing where in Germany you are and what here degree is in?

[shasts]

Bayern. 4 years bachelor's degree in civil engineering, hydro science and engineering Master's.

[mgraupner]

Ok, that's a field I'm not familiar with. I guess this is more of a government field of work and they are more conservative in their hiring process. I found the following jobs and the amount is pretty limited (and in Eastern Germany/Saxonia): https://www.xing.com/jobs/hydrowissenschaften?keywords=Hydro... or https://www.melioplan.de/stellenangebote

Edit: https://www.stepstone.de/jobs/wasserbau-ingenieur Here are far more jobs, so there seem to be at least some available.

Did she contact some professors at her university here in Germany? They often can provide contacts to industry or the government.

Other than that good look at finding a job for her, she should not give up!

[yoyoinbog]

TU means Institute of Technology. Says nothing about being a good university. Your wife is likely bound to your location what limits her options and like has a degree that is not very in demand, at least not where she lives.

Engineering could be everything. And if she has a degree in, let's say food technology and is willing to work somewhere deep in east Germany for a very low amount of money then she would find a job.

[shasts]

"TU9 German Universities of Technology e. V. is the alliance of nine leading Technical Universities in Germany"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU9

And I have a remote job and we almost have no location restrictions.

If there is no demand, how could she see the job advertisements and apply for them?

[yoyoinbog]

Well,ho many technical universities are the in Germany, not taking into account polytechnical universities?

What is her degree? And would you be willing to disclose her origin?

Not all advertised jobs exists. And in a blue chip company there are only three ways to get hired.

1. You have family contacts

2. Your professor has contacts

3. You work for a start up that gets bought by such a company

[mgraupner]

As a German, my personal experience does not correspond with this. I know a lot of companies here where people from India or Eastern European countries work and their knowledge of the German language varies widely. But as long as you speak English you get along very well here. And they work at large companies, mid sized companies or startups. Most people in Tech/Engineering speak English nowadays.

[missedthecue]

Surprisingly the CEO of Bayer, one of Germany's biggest companies, does not speak German despite living and working near Cologne. Apparently the board meetings are conducted in German... No idea how he manages to participate.

[hotpotamus]

I always assumed that if I moved to a different country and took a job there, I'd need to learn the language. It's part of what makes emigrating seem difficult actually.

[HellDunkel]

That is not true. Not in germany, not from my experience. If you speak english you are good. Your colleagues will be happy to pratice their english too.

[FirmwareBurner]

Not for all jobs like traditional industrial German companies where everyone speaks German and have little foreigners.

[askonomm]

Big Berlin start-ups probably are fine in English, but from most of the browsing on LinkedIn, I'd say if you venture out of the big start-up scene, you won't find English there, and that's the vast majority of tech jobs.

[JAlexoid]

> DE currently require good knowledge of German

That's quite reasonable. No matter how good you're at a certain skill, most jobs will require an advanced level of communication.

Imagine if you hired a builder and the person wouldn't be able to understand the intricacies of the job you need performed?

Having teams that are exclusively English speaking in Germany would make sense, but Germany is large enough to not have them yet.

[ysofunny]

because Americans have the unfortunate habit of going to other countries and not bothering to learn the local languages

[dustedcodes]

> Most jobs, even in tech, in DE currently require good knowledge of German

I mean of course, d'oh!? You say "even" in tech, I'd say especially in tech (or really any job that requires communication in high performing fields) should have high standards for the native language, because good communication is key.

Call me old fashioned, but the jobs for people who don't speak the native language (well) are reserved to be: cleaners, putting tins into shelves, scrubbing toilets, warehouse work, sorting foul carrots from good carrots on a production line, etc.

I'd say you need a decent level of being able to communicate with your colleagues and stakeholders. If someone struggles then they can drive an Uber and practice until they are better.

[somewhereoutth]

Except that in the nascent EU single market, the native language is English. Of course you should be fluent in the language of the country in which you work/live, but increasingly this will be less important - assuming that the EU wants any chance of competing with US/China that is.

[JAlexoid]

It's a single market, not a single country.

There are plenty of companies in Germany that have English as a working language, but even then local teams are better served by people with good local language proficiency.

[dustedcodes]

> assuming that the EU wants any chance of competing with US/China that is

Germany can import/export and trade with everyone outside of Germany without dumbing down their population to people with a vocabulary of 100 words. Cross border trade language may be English, but domestic business language is German.

[somewhereoutth]

My understanding is that trade in goods within the Single Market has worked very well, but trade in services not so much - not least due to language barriers. This becomes an issue because service based businesses (which includes law, finance, and creative industries, as well as hairdressing) also benefit from economies of scale - witness the relative success of Silicon Valley and Hollywood, with an immediate market of ~350MM people.

[somewhereoutth]

Except that in the nascent EU single market, the native language is English. Of course you should be fluent in the language of the country in which you work/live, but increasingly this will be less important - assuming that the EU wants any chance of the economies of scale necessary to compete with US/China

[lm28469]

How dare people from a country mandate colleagues to speak the country's language!

I guess that's what happens when digital nomad ideology collides with the real world...