[drwh0]

yeah its amazing that apple touts themselves as pro-user but their external keyboards are without a doubt the most craptastic worthless keyboards on the market. they look cool but are utterly useless for prolonged use

and yes apple takes your freedom and will slowly turn you into an idiot. we're software developers damnit, we're supposed to be interested in how the computer works under the hood, not looking to put a gramma-friendly interface on everything. i don't understand developers who look for "just works" at the expense of "show me the code"

[lacker]

I don't like macs because they are gramma-friendly, I like them because I can run a real bash rather than cygwin. You want to know how a computer works under the hood, you should prefer OS X to windows.

[silentbicycle]

It's rather unfortunate that you need to pay for Mac hardware just to run bash, don't you think?

[lacker]

In my case my employer pays for it ;-) Otherwise I'd be running Ubuntu!

[drwh0]

You want to know how a computer works under the hood, you should prefer OS X

no, i should prefer linux or freebsd, which i do, ON (SANITIZED AND LIBERATED) APPLE HARDWARE.

[lacker]

Hey, you are quoting just part of my sentence! I said prefer OS X to Windows. I agree with you.

[cooldude127]

not every developer wants to develop on their os. rather, I would like computer that "just works" so that I can do my development work.

yes it's cool to be interested in what's under the hood, but once you've tried to get your wireless working for hours on numerous occasions, you start to appreciate when things just work. i got sick of wasting my time.

[drwh0]

not every developer wants to develop on their os

uh....okay-doke

[silentbicycle]

I think what they meant was, "Not everybody wants to develop things for only their current OS".

[jgranby]

A good deal of OS X is open source, but that's beside the point. I don't really care that XNU, etc, are open source, because I don't want to develop an OS -- I want to develop for that OS. If you're so bothered about everything being open, then I suppose you are using OpenBSD, not Linux or anything else, because it doesn't contain binary blobs? Seriously, I don't understand why you're so bothered about things being open that you'd never change anyway.

On the other hand, Cocoa is a better API than anything available for Linux or Windows, and that does matter to me. So do the consistent and logical keyboard shortcuts across all apps, the high level of UI design absent on almost every other OS, how all my hardware just works without having to edit configuration files, and loads of other detail that Apple pays attention to. There's a lot more to good design than being grandma-friendly, and not many people except Apple get it right.

[jodrellblank]

I'm bothered about things being open because I prefer the idea of a future where improvements can be built upon all previous knowledge, rather than a future where everybody has to start from scratch implementing their own basic proprietary versions of everything.

[beta]

I prefer the idea of a future where improvements can be built upon all previous knowledge

pretty much nailed it on the head there. A lot of developers really miss the point while getting sucked into these flamewars..

almost as annoying as the vim vs emacs bickering.

[jonnytran]

If you truly believe you should have to look at the code and that things shouldn't "just work", then you must not know about modularization and encapsulation. If I have to know about how the C linker works in order to install a program, then the OS I'm using is a terribly leaky abstraction with a poorly designed user interface/API.

I want my basic tools to just work so that I can concentrate on developing my own programs and tools.

[drwh0]

modu-whaaa? encapsu...lishion???? wow you must be one of them professor types!

[jimbokun]

Any mention of Apple sure gets your dander up, doesn't it?

[drwh0]

yes, i get particularly pissed by so-called counter-culture hipsters pissing all over the unwashed masses yet slavishly dedicated to the hypocrisy of crass consumerism when they think its "cool". the appletards go miles beyond any shopping-zombie i can think of in their pursuit of buying shit. and yes, it is shit. its stunning that there are morons buying the new macbooks for $2k!!!...i mean, you have to be braindead.

but the icing on the cake was when i bought the 3rd gen ipod nano. previous ipods were recognized by linux and various tools. but oh no, steve had to encrypt the firmware, thus pointlessly complicating what should be a trivial task - mounting a usb device. WHY???? what do you FUCKING CARE steve that i am trying to plug this into a linux box??? is it a problem that i don't buy into your end-end slavery? i replaced it with a cowon...at least they aren't going out of their way to fuck over users who don't goose-step a certain way

[bretthoerner]

You can get the kernel source and much more here: http://developer.apple.com/opensource/index.html

> its stunning that there are morons buying the new macbooks for $2k!!!...i mean, you have to be braindead.

Do you have a car? By your logic - if you drive anything above a Geo Metro you must be braindead. If you don't, do you pay for the bus? You could walk - you must be braindead. Do everything yourself, pay for nothing! Don't put money into making yourself happy with the things you use most of your waking life! What a weakling!

[nickd]

You seem pretty upset about this stuff. I think you're over generalizing about Apple users. Everybody buys things for different reasons.

[drwh0]

i also vent on the other hypocrites who piss on people for buying bottled water yet are sure to lease a new mercedes every nine months

[cpr]

The latest flat aluminum Apple external keyboards are the best I've ever used, and I've been a keyboard snob for decades.

[mstevens]

I can't stand them myself. But other people I work with use them more regularly than me and seem to love them.

No proof of anything, but possibly more useful data.

[burrokeet]

+1 I LOVE this keyboard- only wish the wireless one had a numeric keypad also

[drwh0]

ask anyone occupational therapist if the apple keyboard is recommended over, say, the kinesis advantage pro. if you aren't using a kinesis or one of its real competitors right now, you are not a "keyboard snob"

the apple keyboard:

- has no discernable key travel

- is not split and contoured

- is too small

its probably the biggest ergonomic nightmare out there. fortunately few people actually use them after buying the computer

[cpr]

But if I can fly on this keyboard (and the ones like it such as the MacBook Air) with no problems for years, why should I worry about the "ergonomic" keyboards?