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by DANmode 870 days ago
So you and your colleagues are protecting the patient (thank you).

Who's been protecting this EMR?

(Who likes using it?, who doesn't lose their job by continuing to choose that vendor?, who gets kickbacks from that vendor?)

2 comments

I'm assuming the hospitals in Norway & Finland used some form of a public tender where the cheapest solution wins. I don't think you need malice or corruption to explain it, just good intentions.
There's malice on the sell side. If they can't integrate a trial period then its not worth attempting. Its dumb terminal work not like its actually expensive just very very lucrative because its run like a mafia.
Exactly, when selling a big software system like this to the government, the contractor will very deliberately ensure that it follows the requirements exactly (because requirements are never specific enough) so that the government will then have to go back to them for fixes and upgrades forever. If they see a poorly worded requirement that they can implement as-is knowing it will cause a problem, they celebrate because its a future revenue source.

The only way I can see to avoid this is for a government to have its own dedicated software developers who make these types of applications and maintain them. Preferably open-source so that other governments can use them as well. The incentives change and they'd probably save a ton of money.

The reality is much more mundane.

If they don’t implement that poorly worded requirement, they are entering a world of pain of having to justify the deviation through 10 layers of project managers and qa, all from different organisations (either customer or other contractors). And at the end they’ll be the troublemakers who delayed the milestone

So why bother?

This is also true I don't doubt, but I've heard directly from contractors that they look for requirement holes so they can monetize them to the maximum extent possible.

Having a dedicated developer team who work directly for government whose sole job it is to make and maintain software like this for the long term, still seems like the most cost-effective and durable solution.

See Foundation for Public Code: https://publiccode.net/
Given the nature of EHR systems, it's just not realistic to have trial periods, because everything in a hospital is interdependent. Even the relatively small system I worked on did everything from billing, accounting, insurance, HR, inventory management, scheduling, integrations with medical equipment & third parties (e.g. national health systems) with per-speciality workflows and other automation. Most of it isn't even strictly health-related.

Migrating one way is already a multi-year process, making it potentially two-way with low-latency data consistency for the duration of the trial sounds impossible.

In an ideal world, the system would be modular and you could evaluate it piecemeal, but none of the big players are incentivized to make it possible. The standards that do exist are also very lax and legacy systems don't even support those. Something like a goverment intervention is probably required to break this stalemate.

> none of the big players are incentivized to make it possible

Yea this is the problem. When well meaning startups attempt to make change they get acquired by a piece of shit sales behemoth. If somehow one could resist the acquisition and just eat everybodies lunch we'd all be better off.

The only way change will come is if some actually independent hospital develops open-source in-house software (under the strongest possible non-cooption license available, likely GPL3) over literal decades until it becomes a standard.

It’ll be fought every step by the entire healthcare industry.

I don't think there is such a thing as an actually independent hospital anywhere. In most countries, the medical system seems to be a government monopoly. In America, it is an oligopoly that egregiously violates the anti-trust laws and whose real customers are the government and the health insurance companies.

The entire industry seems like a politically connected bureaucratic nightmare of one kind or another in every country on earth. Solving that problem would require some way to allow doctors to become genuinely independent again[0] and to ensure that patients could choose their doctor. If doctors were genuinely independent, they would choose the best medical records software and that software would be able to open up files from competitors[1].

[0]: The main American blocker to this would be something called malpractice insurance which is extremely unaffordable and necessary to protect doctors from being bankrupted by lawsuits whenever they make a mistake. Hospitals can afford that insurance much more easily than independent doctors so they can basically buy up all the doctors. I suspect that an affordable public option for this insurance would help restore a competitive free market in medicine.

[1]: I've heard first-hand from family members that the file formats for the different medical records software are incompatible. They convert medical records by actually typing the information from the other hospital's system into their system.

You can't just build your own EMR and call it a day, unless you are very selective of your patients.

Accepting Medicaid and, if memory serves, Medicare requires using a certified EHR/EMR system, and getting that certification is both time consuming and expensive.

You aren't just fighting the healthcare industry, but also well-intentioned government regulations.

> just good intentions

And yet the system is aimed at getting the cheapest possible bid? Perhaps the intentions are good, but the execution is horrible. So maybe not malice or corruption, but incompetence.

In Finland the tender was between Cerner and Epic. Because our largest hospital district wanted to buy American eletronic medical record system. I guess the biggest influencer was Kaiser Permanante (=they are world class and are using Epic, so it has to be best system in the world)