[SuperNinKenDo]

Flooding your military with people who have no conception of the values and history that underpin your society seems like a really bad idea to me.

I do like the idea of military service as a route to citizenship though. But literally just signing people up at the border seems way too problematic and dangerous.

[seanmcdirmid]

> I do like the idea of military service as a route to citizenship though.

A lot of Filipinos went this route in 70s or 80s (hazy on timeline here). They enlisted abroad as well, although I guess it’s a different situation when another country has Us navy bases.

https://www.quora.com/Do-any-Filipinos-serve-in-the-United-S....

[SuperNinKenDo]

In Starship Troopers (the book), I'm pretty sure the ptoagonist (was it still Rico?) was Phillipino. Almost wonder if Heinlein might have drawn on this episode as inspiration for his ideas around service for citizenship.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Flooding your military with people who have no conception of the values and history that underpin your society seems like a really bad idea to me

I agree. I assume we'd use foreign recruits to make up for domestic-recruiting shortfalls. The lack of knowledge of our history can be fixed with education; values, with selection criteria. I wouldn't be surprised if these immigrants turned out not only to be great fighters, but among the more patriotic Americans.

[wizerdrobe]

Alternatively bringing in a flood of foreign fighters who can be abused and extorted into doing dirty deeds by politicians holding an extremely lucrative carrot (US access) and stick (deportation) sounds like a recipe for abuse of the soldiers, and likely anyone they’re deployed against.

Considering the history of the French Foreign Legion, I’m disinclined to believe in the best possible outcome here.

History has taught this lesson.

[kasey_junk]

Between a quarter to a third of the union army was foreign born during the civil war (while the broader population was only about 10% foreign born).

That’s not to say all of them were non-citizens but the Union went out of its way to recruit abroad.

The scene in Gangs of New York where fresh off the boat immigrants were signed into the army was realistic. We have a long history of using freshly arrived folks in our military with no major problems.

[SuperNinKenDo]

I don't know enough about that to open my mouth much on it, but I'd say civil wars are a special case given they are often fought over specific principles, ergo, have a certain natural selection.

Further, you're talking about a time in America's history where standing armies were dispreferred, which is not what modern American militarism looks like at all.

Finally, as far as "foreign born" people go, as I said, I support the idea of military service being a route for them toward citizenship, I just don't think going down to the border and signing people up there is a good idea.

I think one interesting idea, although you might only be able to do it as a once off without creating too many bad incentives, would be to offer amnesty and a route to citizenship this way.

I don't have a dog in the fight though, I'm not American. The risks of making joining the armed forces a direct route to citizenship in one of the most desirable countries to immigrate to in the world is not negligible though, you need to be careful, lest your armed forces turn into green card mercenaries, with no value base.

[krapp]

The rest of the world is far more aware of American values and history, thanks to America's cultural imperialism and military hegemony, than the average American is of anything outside of their borders.

[SuperNinKenDo]

That's an extremely low bar given many of the Americans I've met.

Even in a comparitively similar country like Australia, where I live, Australians have a hard time understanding many basic American values, particularly political ones, in my experience

[riku_iki]

You can add test as requirement and pick top contestants, and you will have recruits who know American history, values, constitution etc better than Americans.

[SuperNinKenDo]

While I agree that many people would do well to have the kind of civic background knowledge they demand people acquire to gain citizenship, and it's an important part of integrating people into a society, there is also a lot that is acquired by living in a society for a time, experiencing and observing its contradictions and how it manages them personally, understanding how you navigate it and your place between two or more national identities and experiences, etc.

That said, I think there's a place for inviting people in. In America's case though, it seems like there's a huge reserve of people already in American society, both legally and illegally, that can be drawn on first. That to me seems like it should be the priority.

[riku_iki]

> experiencing and observing its contradictions and how it manages them personally, understanding how you navigate it and your place between two or more national identities and experiences, etc.

and serving in navy for 4 years is much smoother experience compared to green card lottery winners who are left on their own

> it seems like there's a huge reserve of people already in American society, both legally and illegally, that can be drawn on first.

I think the point is that reserve is not huge, because appeal is not that strong for those who are already in the US, hence navy drops requirements standards.

[e12e]

The French Foreign Legion seems to do ok?

[SuperNinKenDo]

An extremely small outfit with extremely high selection criteria and a gruelling recruitment process, that's specifically structured to handle foreign recruits, and drills them extremely harshly in French language. Which offers a citizenship, that while nothing to sneeze at, is regularly not even taken up by some of its soldiers after they serve.

It's not a viable comparison to signing people up at the border to get US citizenship on any level.

However it could act as inspiration for any efforts to found a similar outfit in the States.

[e12e]

> extremely small outfit

Maybe by us standards (1.4m active) - but the legion is almost 10k active personell - close to 10% of the French forces.

Still, Ukraine claim their foreign legion stand at 30k.

[SuperNinKenDo]

That's a really good point, although I think the smallness matters more in absolute terms, than relative terms. Both examples show that you can maintain a large foreign presence in your military though. The French Foreign Legion is highly, highly, selective though.

I don't know much about the Ukraine foreign legion, but being in an immediately existentially threatening conflict is a special case. I doubt the Ukrainians would wish for such a large foreign legion if they had the choice, although again, I don't know the history of its numbers prior to the war with Russia.