[kingsleyopara]

Honestly, I regret raising the point - sorry. The existence of the MFI programme isn't the problem. Just that Apple was planning on enforcing it on a USB C iPhone when they didn't on iPad. I could never imagine this situation: an Apple Store employee explaining to a customer why their iPhone won't charge with the same generic USB C cable that charges their iPad when they both share the same port.

[bloppe]

Seems right up Apple's alley to me. They're about to geofence all these App Store changes to the EU, after all. Would make complete sense for them to hobble the USB ports on iPhones despite the existence the iPad which disproves the infeasibility of a fully-features USB port for iOS.

Seems like this is going to become increasingly common as Apple clings to their rent-seeking practices in every jurisdiction that dawdles on antitrust enforcement.

[silverlyra]

hey, fwiw, I don’t regret your raising it, and I appreciate that you’ve been engaging with me :)

I would love for this thread to accomplish something other than meta rifraff, so — I’ve never worked as an Apple Store floor sales person, but:

> In the 90's, a USB cable was just four braided wires – literal copper wires which link copper pins in your [computer] with your [printer]. Two of them carried the data, and the other carried power and ground. This worked, and it was an affordable, easy-to-implement standard which spread like dandelion seeds on the wind.

> Now in the 2020's, we have USB-C. Have you ever had a kind of “friend” who tries to be “everything to everyone“? Well, that‘s USB-C.

> We fixed some things with USB A and mini – er, micro – B, like how hard they were to plug in, and how you invariably seemed to find yourself holding them upside down more than 50% of the time!

> And, well, engineers being engineers, and USB standing for universal serial bus, we tried to also solve all other problems at the same time. Like you couldn’t use a USB cable for video, or to power an air fryer.

> So, these days, USB cables are more than braids of copper wire. They are “active” cables! meaning they have a microchip inside. Even our cables became little computers.

> And we kept backwards compatibility with USB, so that if you use a plug adapter, you can take an original 90’s USB mouse and plug it right into your brand new iPhone n±1!

> Or nowadays, you might grab the wrong cable in your kitchen, and plug your toaster oven into your iPhone. yikes! I know you came in to the store today with a simple-seeming question, and we’ve been standing here now for minutes, and I apologize – but now I hope I can answer your question about why this cable isn’t recognized by your new phone.

> When an active cable is plugged in, the chip inside the cable “negotiates” with the chip inside the device. For a device you hold in your hand and use without thinking about it, like your phone, we have made the negotiator more stringent than we did in our tablet. :)

[vel0city]

I love USB-C. Its awesome with one cable I'm able to plug in multiple different models of computer to my monitor and get 3440x1440 160Hz + multiple USB 3.0 + audio + 65W power. Or go to my desk at work and plug into my dock and get multi monitors + gig networking + multiple USB ports + audio + 90W power. I'll take that over proprietary dock connectors any day.

I love that the same power adapter I use to charge one computer works with all my computers, my portable game console, my headphones, my portable speaker, my phone, my tablet, my flashlight, my battery bank, and more. I like that the USB-C port in my car can natively charge my laptop, at least when asleep/powered off, without needing an AC inverter to run a 19V brick.

There's no way you're going to convince me my life with dozens different sizes of barrel power adapters with different voltages/polarizations, micro + mini USB, and more proprietary power connectors were better. You're never going to convince me having the vendor lock-in of proprietary laptop docks was better than just a single cable to do it all. I can't wait to retire my last few barrel-type power devices.

[troupo]

> than just a single cable to do it all

Well, generally speaking, you can't use "just a single cable". Because a USB-C cable only carrying a power charge would still technically be a USB-C cable. And you would never know until you tried to connect your display with it

[vel0city]

I do use a single cable in that it's just one cable coming from my monitor or dock. It's just one charging adapter in my bag. So generally speaking I am just plugging in a single cable to my monitor or carrying a single charger in my backpack. I'm not plugging in power, HDMI, network, and a USB hub separately every time I hop from one desk to another, just plug the one cable on the desk and it's good to go.

Sure, I'm not literally talking about a single cable I'm taking from one port to another port, but the fact I can just plug my laptop into my monitor and get all of that is awesome. And if I bought a good cable I could totally do that. The fact I'm able to charge all my devices off my laptop charger is awesome. The fact one could cheap out and buy a cable that wouldn't work with all the features of the monitor/laptop link doesn't make that less awesome. I just use the included cables with the docks or what not or make sure to buy a cable that does what I need if replacing/upgrading and it's not a problem.

You're still not convincing me the existence of cheap cables that can't do it all makes having several different cables and power adapters a better time. In one case you're absolutely forced to have them be separate every time, in another it's only that they're separate if you're buying cheap bullshit online from trash vendors.

[troupo]

> I do use a single cable in that it's just one cable coming from my monitor or dock.

I do, too. However, what I wrote is a fact. Almost everything in the USB-C spec is optional, and you can't deduce which optional parts a USB-C cable supports from the cable alone.

For example, here's a charging USB-C cable with max transfer speed of 480 MB/s: https://www.clasohlson.com/se/USB-C-kabel-2m-USB-C-till-USB-...

Good luck connecting it to your monitor. And no, it's not a "cheap bullshit from trash vendors". This is literally in the standard

[vel0city]

I'm not just constantly picking up random cables off the street and trying to use it to connect my monitor. While what you're saying is true, you're practically describing a non-issue. Devices usually come with a cable that matches its capabilities, and if you're replacing it just check the capabilities when you buy the replacement cable. Don't buy random cables, keep cables related to their usage (aka leave the cable plugged into the dock or monitor, or at least near it), and its not a problem. I keep my charge-only cable with the battery bank, the laptop power adapter has a fixed cable on the brick, I keep the cable plugged into the dock and the screen, I keep a cable that meets the specs needed for Android Auto in the car, and I'm never confused about what goes where.

For your link, this is a good vendor. They're (presumably) accurately describing the features of the cable. If it matches your needs, buy it! But clearly its specs don't meet my needs for my monitor, so I wouldn't buy it if I was replacing the cable for my monitor. Not that I even needed to buy a separate cable, the dock/monitor/etc all came with cables that matched the device's needs and have so far lasted many years. Use the included cable and it is not a problem. The line about "cheap bullshit from trash vendors" are vendors selling cables that don't meet their listed specs on the store listing. Which is why I don't buy cables from AliExpress or Amazon or others, I can't trust the cable to be what it says it is.

Even back in the day pre-USB-C you'd still have to check the specs on the cable. What voltage does your laptop run at? How many watts is it going to pull? What size barrel? Polarity? If I reached into a bin full of various "laptop chargers", what are the odds it would work with your device? Pretty damn slim! And what are the odds that power brick would charge your phone as well? Zero!

Reach into a bin full of USB-C-based laptop chargers, what are the odds it'll work with your USB-C laptop? Extremely high! What are the odds it'll charge your phone as well? Extremely high!

Which experience is better?

This whole issue is largely because we're starting to get to the point where the data transfer speeds we're hoping for is getting pretty insane from a physics standpoint, and it doesn't make sense for every cable to be built to that level. If I'm getting a cable that I know I'm only ever going to want to charge a few watt device off of, I don't need it to be built to the spec of many many gigabits of throughput. This is even getting to be true with digital video cables in general. I've got some DisplayPort cables on my desk here. What max resolution and refresh rate do they support? How about these HDMI cables? Did they even bother listing their specs on the sheathing? Nope! But should they have just created a new connector every few years requiring all new cables and have monitors with a dozen different ports on them?

I'd say having different cable specs that are clearly known when originally sold is an OK compromise for continued growth without needing new connectors. This issue of "not all cables support all things" as some reason why the old way of having a million different cables and connectors was better is focusing on such a tiny problem compared to how much better practically everything else is. Are you seriously arguing for the barrel and other proprietary connectors, different power adapters for everything? Are you seriously arguing for having either proprietary docks or needing to plug in several cables going from one desk to another?

In the end, I am using one cable to connect my laptop to my whole desk setup, right now. This is better than the past where the same setup would have required a bunch of cables. Sure, I do have other cables in the house that would physically connect but not do all the things, but once again that never happens because I'm not trying to use only one cable that I don't know the specs on to try and do everything. And FWIW, I could do that "one cable to do everything" if I picked the right cable at the start. I could just use this cable on the monitor to charge at the nightstand, in the car, with the battery bank, to charge all my other devices, etc.

[riwsky]

USB-C: if YAML were a cable