[fouric]

> My fear for end users is that once an alternative App Store opens or direct side loading is allowed it will reduce users options and harm the users ability to effectivly control privacy.

This is massively misinformed. The majority of privacy controls exist in iOS itself completely independently of the distribution method, and many more unimplemented potentially beneficial privacy controls can also be implemented at that level. This has been true for years.

[nodamage]

Privacy controls are not a panacea against abuse by malicious developers. Permissions can be granted for legitimate purposes and then abused for nefarious purposes once granted.

Many of the App Store privacy rules relate to what you are allowed to do with the user data after access is granted by the user. In other words they relate to data retention rather than access in the first place.

For example they recently added a rule saying if a user can create an account inside your app you have to also give them an option to delete the account from the app as well. This is a behavior enforced by app review, not by operating system privacy controls.

[throw10920]

> Privacy controls are not a panacea against abuse by malicious developers

Sure, I never claimed that they were a panacea - just that the majority of privacy controls implemented by iDevices are actually in iOS and not Apple's App Store review process.

Additionally, those privacy controls are more fundamental than those in the App Store. It's more important that the app not be able to toggle the microphone at will than for you to be able to control what it does with that audio after capture.

> Many of the App Store privacy rules relate to what you are allowed to do with the user data after access is granted by the user

That's not an iOS problem, and Apple fundamentally cannot regulate that, App Store or no - after your personal information goes to a third party's servers, Apple has zero visibility into what happens.

This is also not an Apple-specific issue - this happens with Android, Windows, Chrome, and random online websites. Apple cannot and should not be responsible for fixing this - we need a good set of government regulations designed to restrict how your personal data is collected or used. Otherwise, just like you said, an entity (e.g. a bank) can ask for your personal data, then store it, and it gets leaked.

[nodamage]

> Additionally, those privacy controls are more fundamental than those in the App Store. It's more important that the app not be able to toggle the microphone at will than for you to be able to control what it does with that audio after capture.

I mean both are equally important really. I might want to grant you access to my microphone to run a voice command but that doesn't mean I want you to collect my voice recordings and sell them to someone else. I might want to grant you access to my contacts so I can message my friends but that doesn't mean I want you to scrape my contact list to data mine my social network.

> That's not an iOS problem, and Apple fundamentally cannot regulate that, App Store or no - after your personal information goes to a third party's servers, Apple has zero visibility into what happens.

Yes they can. Maybe not perfectly but the App Store Review Guidelines define specific restrictions on what you can do with personal information, with the threat of having your developer account terminated if you violate those restrictions.

> Apple cannot and should not be responsible for fixing this - we need a good set of government regulations designed to restrict how your personal data is collected or used.

Sure, specific privacy regulations would be great, but the government moves very slowly and the government itself isn't going to be able to enforce such regulations on a massive scale in the same way that the app review process currently does.

[jamil7]

> I mean both are equally important really. I might want to grant you access to my microphone to run a voice command but that doesn't mean I want you to collect my voice recordings and sell them to someone else.

Throughout this thread you’ve demonstrated that you don’t understand how the OS itself works and assume App Store review is somehow protecting you from this, the OS already prevents this.

[nodamage]

That's a very condescending accusation you've made, but okay I'll bite. How exactly does the OS prevent this? Just to be very clear, the scenario is:

1) The app requests access to the microphone.

2) The user grants the app access to the microphone.

3) The app, now having microphone access, processes the user's voice command and does what is requested.

4) The app also uploads the voice recording to their backend and later sells the voice recording to someone else.

What mechanism in the operating system do you believe prevents (4) from occurring?

[Txmm]

Even with controls on the device companies act in bad faith and take liberties with your privacy - I was going to the beach yesterday and my friend shared his location through messenger, to view it I had to share my precise location too - why? You can deny the permission all you want but that won’t stop them blocking features unless you tick the box, even if it is unrelated or not needed for the functionality.

[throw10920]

That's a clear example of a bad technical control, whose fix can still be implemented in iOS without the App Store. It's pretty trivial to add a feature to iOS that allows you to fake your location - there was an Android fork that had that feature for a while a few years ago.

> You can deny the permission all you want but that won’t stop them blocking features unless you tick the box

Many permissions (camera, mic, location, etc.) are trivial for the OS to spoof and don't require app store vetting.

[roamerz]

Interested to read up on that. Do you know of any articles that would provide an overview of how that works? In laymen’s terms?