[mutagen]

Not just Django, the .NET and some other traditional server side communities have done their best to avoid JavaScript.

Despite the churn, there are some great core technologies for the front end. Native browser functionality is much better than it used to be.

[miiiiiike]

Oh yeah, .NET [0] too. Layers upon layers of abstractions in C# just to be able to accomplish a fraction of what you could easily do in JavaScript.

[0]: I was a C# developer for five years, but, with Mono, because I wanted to make sure I wouldn’t be employable.

[mattmanser]

I don't feel that's really true.

Try using the native date control or the number control.

You also still can't easily style the select component. In React MUI, for example, they completely give up on it and use styled divs instead.

But what would I know, I'm one of those incompetent .Net developers.

[miiiiiike]

> But what would I know, I'm one of those incompetent .Net developers.

C# and the .NET Framework were some of my favorite tools. I thought LINQ was neat.

> You also still can't easily style the select component.

Forgoing JavaScript and CSS for a .NET abstraction wouldn't make the situation any better. You'd just get whatever the select component's library gave you until the browsers standardize a way to do it.

[em-bee]

but that's a browser problem, not a frontend framework issue. you'd have the same limitation without a frontend framework, wouldn't you?

[mutagen]

Those are great examples, there's still work to be done.

[berkes]

It's very true for Ruby on Rails. Rails' (not so) benevolent dictator for life, DHH, has been inventing and pulling in abstractions on abstractions so that Rails Devs don't need to touch JavaScript.