[palata]

> We need better tooling

It's not always that we need better tooling. Here I think we need better developers, as in "developers who care about this issue".

Developers are the ones including the bloat, right? If all the developers started working slower but including less bloat, what would the managers do? Probably the managers have no clue about the complexity of what their devs do: they just compare the tasks with t-shirt sizes (with estimations that are generally completely wrong, but they still use them).

The problem is that if one developer works slowly writing less bloated code, and their 3 coworkers keep adding bloat, then not only it's still getting bloated, but the first dev appears to be less productive.

It's a kind of competition between developers, where those who do the better job lose.

[photonthug]

Bloat is the only endgame as capabilities and complexity increase, so tooling is the only answer. Stacks on stacks of software with millions of lines is the present and the future, so we have to get used to it, because it happens in a world with perfect developers Or in a world without whatever problem languages etc.

[palata]

I won't answer to that because we'll end up in an infinite loop, but I kindly disagree :-).