[hammock]

How is double stair MFH overzealous? I can’t control if my neighbor blocks the stairwell with a couch that gets stuck while he’s moving in and now I have no egress if my other neighbor starts a fire.

I’m in favor of greater freedoms, and the freedom to choose a single stair MFH if I want.

But I don’t want.

[kspacewalk2]

A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over... That's quite a contrived scenario. I suspect that most of the improvements in the fire safety record of apartment buildings have to do with other factors like materials used, fireproof stair doors, etc etc. The reason I think the two stairs don't do much is that first world countries exist outside North America, they don't have this rule, and their fire safety is just as good or better than ours.

Same reason I'm extremely skeptical that our fire trucks need to be so grotesquely large, despite what the fire departments claim. If there were no countries with a good fire safety record outside North America, like sure, okay, maybe. But they're just as good or better at fighting fires in Europe, and manage to go this with human sized trucks that don't require extremely wide streets, wide turn radiuses, and aren't nearly as deadly for pedestrians as a result. Thanks for existing, Europe, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan etc! One day we'll accept that you to cities, building and engineering better and just copy you.

[u801e]

> A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over.

Not everyone is young and in shape to push couches or jump over them.

[pzone]

If you have mobility issues that prevent you from exiting your building easily then you can move somewhere else. We don’t need to make every apartment building in the country more expensive for this extremely specific scenario.

[u801e]

I can go up and down unobstructed stairs without any issues, but I have back problems which keep me from doing heavy lifting and I'm in no condition to jump or climb over a sofa in the middle of a flight of stairs.

The real problem here is expecting people to be able bodied enough to deal with a lack of alternative exits when someone in the same building inevitably is careless enough to start a fire.

[lukas099]

So even more contrived

[hammock]

>A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over... That's quite a contrived scenario. I suspect that most of the improvements in the fire safety record of apartment buildings have to do with other factors like materials used, fireproof stair doors, etc etc.

I suppose you also think it’s silly for flight crew to confirm people sitting in the exit row are able and willing to help in an emergency.

Couldn’t you just push them out of the way or jump over them?

[nkrisc]

> A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over...

You’re 85.

[porkbeer]

Or maybe they have small children. Wtf man.

[kdmccormick]

> I can’t control if my neighbor blocks the stairwell with a couch that gets stuck while he’s moving in and now I have no egress if my other neighbor starts a fire.

That is an extremely specific situation!

> How is double stair MFH overzealous?

There is a cost to every regulation. The cost to this one is that housing is more expensive for all Americans. Stress, poverty, and homelessness all lead to negative health outcomes. Taken as a whole, those negative outcomes may very well outweigh the fire safety benefits of double-stair (which have never been proven to exist).

> I’m in favor of greater freedoms, and the freedom to choose a single stair MFH if I want. > But I don’t want.

Right, so it sounds like you are in favor of removing the double-stair regulation?

[hammock]

>That is an extremely specific situation!

It’s an example. Can you generalize it or should I?

[kelseyfrog]

Here's a hypothetical for a two-stairwell building: two couches.

We can avoid this dangerous scenario with a three-stairwell minimum requirement.

[hammock]

Good point. Why do we even bother with two-lane roads and a double yellow line? Such a waste of space. Very contrived to presume there is always a car coming the other way

[kdmccormick]

You're comparing a situation that happens all the time (opposing traffic) with one that happens extremely rarely (blocked stairwell in a fire). If anything, you're strengthening my point.

We should design for situations to a level that is appopriate given their frequency and severity. Show me evidence that MANDATING the extra stairwell justifies the huge increase in national housing cost, and I'll concede.

[kelseyfrog]

Sorry, but the only thing that will change my mind is a significantly casualty different between single stairwell and dual-stairwell buildings accounting for building age, construction type, property value, and occupant demographics.

Happy to hear evidence-based arguments.

[sunshowers]

The US would certainly be a nicer place to live if there were more roads with just one lane, like many older cities and suburbs already have.

[matsemann]

Why would you need two lanes in each direction, except perhaps on a highway..? I agree, such a waste of space.

[Paradigma11]

I just dont think it would really help that often. It is not the stairwells that are burning, it is some appartment on a floor below. Your problem is going to be smoke and visibility, not some couch blocking the stair. If those stairs are connected, you will most likely have smoke everywhere and will have no clue if one stair is safer than the other.

[TaylorAlexander]

> How is double stair MFH overzealous?

I suggest reading the article, which is intended to answer this question in depth. It provides concrete examples!

[hammock]

As a safety measure, it doesn’t, unless I missed something. In fact it says there has been barely any analysis

[Klaster_1]

Check out this video, which argues against double stair MFH - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRdwXQb7CfM.

[Paradigma11]

That doesnt help you because another neighbor is moving out and blocking the second staircase with another couch. This is the reason why you should have three staircases and only two neighbors. Though a problem arises if a neighbor is able to block a staircase and start a fire at the same time. That has to be checked beforehand.

[cheriot]

We should require two stairs for single family housing as well.

The elderly and disabled will also need to get furniture up stairs. Not to mention that the housing shortage forces more people to share a house with strangers.

[shiroiuma]

>Not to mention that the housing shortage forces more people to share a house with strangers.

Or, you could just build more housing... And stop insisting on so much living space while you're at it. Here in Tokyo, no one lives with strangers, even if they get minimum wage. They can still afford an apartment by themselves, though it'll be a very small apartment that's certainly illegal to build in America.

[cheriot]

I agree. That was an attempt at reductio ad absurdum.

[amarshall]

The couch goes in the elevator, not the stairwell.