[icebraining]

I haven't downvoted your first comment, but I think you have a very prejudiced (and wrong) view of porn.

Firstly, (almost) everyone watches porn: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/relationships/6709646/All-men-wat...

Second, nothing in consuming porn inherently means the person "lacks self-control" (there's certainly porn addicts, but they're not the majority) or "settles for fantasy" - in fact, many couples watch porn together and use it to improve their own sex life.

Thirdly, porn is a highly competitive industry with a lot of talent in producing, managing and distributing content, both online and offline. They run very big websites and serve huge amounts of video traffic per minute. Xvideos alone has twice the page views of Reddit.

[glogla]

And lot of stuff we use routinely today, like video streaming, on-demand content distribution, secure pay-gates and various subscription models were if not created at least stress tested and used by porn ten years ago, maybe even before that. Who knows whether there would be youtube if there were porn in the 90s.

[zerostar07]

That's kind of BS. Porn is popular and addictive, and the internet is a huge megaphone, that doesn't make it respectable, the same way that pooping is not a respectable genre, despite the huge popularity of the act.

[icebraining]

"Respectable". The very word makes me shudder. How many injustices have been committed in the name of keeping such appearances?

In any case, I don't see how porn being or not a respectable genre does in any way invalidate what I wrote.

[civilian]

Agreed! Here's a relevant quote:

"Science fiction should get out of the classroom and back in the gutter where it belongs!" -Dena Benatan Brown.

Sci-fi is decently respected now, but some authors have gladly embraced Dena Brown's advice. When writing science fiction, you shouldn't care about respectability. That's not the point.

So yeah. Same goes with porn. Porn doesn't care if it's respectable. That is not porn's goal.

[zerostar07]

I 'm not against porn or anything, but i do think porn and sex is overrated in culture (perhaps out of spite for the christian oppression of the past?). Porn is popular, but it's not like it earned it, we are wired to be addicted to it (there's quite a lot of research on the addictiveness of porn). The fact that it's popular and drives a lot of internet traffic does not mean a negative view of porn is wrong. Alcohol and gambling are popular and drive a lot of resources does it mean they are not negative?

[icebraining]

You're arguing against a strawman. I didn't say a negative view of porn is wrong. I said SpaceDragon was wrong because he views "anyone who indulges in porn" as uncompetitive, lacking self-control and settles for fantasy. And that's factually wrong.

[SpaceDragon]

Porn is a plague that degrades women, trivializes intimacy and is poison for children and families. It's junk food of the worst kind for the mind.

[evincarofautumn]

It sounds like you’re judging the extreme negatives of pornography while ignoring its positive aspects. I can hardly blame you—the negatives are very visible—but I think such a subtle topic requires a more measured approach.

Most pornography is not degrading to anybody—it’s merely people seeking to make money or have a good time—and a considerable portion of it doesn’t even involve women. To say nothing of the female viewers of porn.

Most pornography does not trivialise intimacy, and there are vast amounts of erotic fiction and pornography with legitimate, deep characters with whom the audience is meant to be emotionally involved. In addition, not all intimacy in real life is deep: people often have “meaningless” sex even within the context of a relationship. If you’ll pardon the wording, it’s okay if a happy couple feels less like “making love” and more like “fucking”. And this is both natural and healthy.

As for toxicity to children and families, I’m baffled as to how knowledge of sexuality could be at all detrimental to the welfare of a child or family structure. Most children find sexual topics boring or revolting anyway, and I strongly doubt that pornography alone is sufficient to tear a family apart. Of course, pornography of children is another matter entirely.

But junk food for the mind? Absolutely! Porn is not necessary—I used to watch porn mainly when I was bored and lonely, and by avoiding things that bore me and keeping myself in the company of others, there is much less of a reason for me to seek it out.

Still, I don’t see the need to spurn it outright—people watch porn every day and it doesn’t hurt anybody.

[icebraining]

Well, I don't think there's any point in discussing this. We're obviously not going to change our opinions about it.

But I'd like to say that personally, I prefer to let women decide for themselves what degrades them, instead of taking the position that I know best, and considering that many women nowadays watch porn (1 in 3 porn viewers, according to Nielsen), I'm not sure if they feel that way.

[swordswinger12]

Interesting viewpoint. Can you expand on it a little bit though? How does porn do each of the things you listed?

[drumdance]

Yes, with all these millions of victims it must be creating, perhaps we should outlaw it like we did drugs. That's worked out great.

[icebraining]

I disagree with SpaceDragon, but he hasn't said anything about outlawing it, so that's kind of flamebait.

[derleth]

> Porn is a plague that degrades women

It's amazing how many people think it's their place to decide when someone else is being degraded.

Also, why women? Why single out a specific gender?

[Mz]

Probably because the cultural norm is to assume that men are entitled to get laid but women are not. Such assumptions lead to uneven social outcomes which make sex far more socially problematic for women than men, for example prostitutes are typically viewed in more negative terms than johns are. It is not unusual for someone to express the idea that it is okay for a man to pay for sex but it is evil incarnate for a woman to sell it.

While I don't happen to agree with such views I think there are some good reasons why they exist and men who hold such views often do so out of a sense of protectiveness for women generally.  But if women are to achieve equality, such things need to change. Unfortunately, idealistically protesting the supposed degradation of women basically agrees with the default cultural assumption that women are mere sex objects who get used by men and thus tends to reinforce it rather than undermine it. As a woman, I have found that whining and complaining that men should not treat women as sex objects is a really weak position to take because it respects the assumption that all the power to change things is held by men, not women. A far stronger position is to turn the tables on men and talk about them like they are sex objects for my pleasure. Edit: I mean as a form of rebuttal/to make a point. In practice -- i.e. in a relationship -- I don't think it really works for either party to be objectified.

Somewhat in Space Dragon's defense, I think there may be some correlation between a man liking porn and a man treating women as mere sex objects. I cannot say though which is cause and which is effect -- i.e. whether men who view women as mere sex objects are more attracted to porn or whether watching porn promotes such attitudes.  I only know that men who treated me decently tended to have little interest in porn. I don't much care for it myself, though that isn't out of judgmentalism. It simply doesn't float my boat.

[derleth]

> think there may be some correlation between a man liking porn and a man treating women as mere sex objects

I doubt it, given the negative correlation between porn and sex crimes:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/v046j3g178147772/fulltex...

Maybe it's the case that those who most objectify others will be satisfied with using porn pretty much exclusively if that's an option, but I doubt it works like that. I think porn simply fulfills the 'punching bag' need, and allows other emotions to come to the fore in the real world.

> I have found that whining and complaining that men should not treat women as sex objects is a really weak position to take because it respects the assumption that all the power to change things is held by men

I fully agree.

I also think that one part of achieving equality is to realize that women objectify men, and that it's in their power to stop such behavior. Especially since any man who objects to being objectified by a woman is placed in a very precarious position in our current society, much like how people pretty much assume it's impossible for women to rape or abuse men.

[Mz]

Have an upvote, though I don't see any reason to believe that the negative correlation between porn and sex crimes in any way proves that my personal opinion, based in part on first hand experience interacting with heterosexual men, is wrong. I think all it means is that having some outlet is better than having no outlet, not that viewing porn makes would-be rapists have more humane and enlightened attitudes towards women. Similar to the fact that countries with inadequate legal exports are your biggest exporters of illicit drugs: They need hard currency and that need doesn't go away just because they lack better options. If given better (more socially acceptable) options, people will usually take the easier path that leads to fewer problems. It is a form of self interest, not necessarily an expression of deeply respecting other people.