[vasilipupkin]

"For all practical purposes, Israel occupies Gaza; it is required to keep Gazan civilians supplied, If Israel wanted Gaza to be self-sufficient, it could allow them to build an airport, to receive ships on its shorefront, and to manage its own border with Egypt"

This is besides the point. Israel did not stop Hamas, which is the governing authority in Gaza, from investing in water infrastructure. Hamas chose to invest in underground tunnels instead. That is tragic, but it's not the responsibility of Israel. Israel did not control what happened inside Gaza and blockade did not prevent Hamas from importing cement and other materials for tunnel building, this is because civilian imports were allowed, but Hamas used imports earmarked for civilian use to build tunnels and rockets.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/us/politics/israel-gaza-t...

[tptacek]

We're veering towards a debate about competing values, and I'm deeply skeptical of the value of those kinds of conversations on HN, given how polarizing this topic is and how conditioned we are to pattern match to the worst possible interpretations of competing arguments. I'm doing my best to stay dry and neutral about the overall conflict, and to rebut only claims that are in the ballpark of factual.

Regarding the "governing" status of Hamas, I would observe that the overwhelming majority of Gazans are too young to have ever voted, and that Hamas seized and maintains power coercively, so we should be careful attributing ideas like rightful governing status to Hamas. Among the organizations that care less about the lives of Palestinians than Israel, one must clearly number Hamas.

[vasilipupkin]

I don't agree that this has anything to do with values really.

Hamas is the de facto governing authority of Gaza, or was as of October 7th It could have chosen to build water infrastructure, desalination plants, etc. Instead it chose to build tunnels and rockets.

As the de facto governing authority, it has the obligation to provide water, not Israel, if we are talking about strictly legal aspect of this situation.

[tptacek]

We disagree sharply about these things are at likely at diminishing returns for conversation, one indication of that being that you didn't really respond to the point I raised, but rather reasserted your original claim as if I hadn't raised it at all. That's fine; some discussions are just hard to have on HN, and we shouldn't force it.

[vasilipupkin]

your point that you raised seems irrelevant to the specific question at hand.

"Regarding the "governing" status of Hamas, I would observe that the overwhelming majority of Gazans are too young to have ever voted, and that Hamas seized and maintains power coercively, so we should be careful attributing ideas like rightful governing status to Hamas"

I agree, but I did not attribute "rightful" status to Hamas. It's just a factual observation that Hamas had de-facto governing control of the Gaza strip. Elections are not a pre-condition to control

Given that it had control of the Gaza strip, Hamas, as the controlling authority, has responsibility for civilians under its control, not Israel, at least legally

if you want to argue that regardless of legal responsibilites, Israel is still responsible for those civilians, despite Hamas control, that's a separate line of reasoning that leads to its own implications

[tptacek]

At that point you're making a very banal point about the moral status of Hamas. But Hamas has no moral status, so metering it in ever finer units isn't moving any conversation forward. We agree: Hamas is very bad.

[vasilipupkin]

well, it's not as banal of a point as you think because plenty of players treat Hamas as a legitimate organization, including Turkey and others. Palestinian politicians from the West Bank are on record, for example, that future governments should and will include Hamas. Once you agree it's very bad, there are further implications that follow from this assessment and then we arrive at where we are now.