[keepamovin]

Did he? Like what? I've been watching a few Vivek town halls and it seems ok. Which ones have you seen that were crazy shit? Please tell more, I am interested.

But just so you know, crazy shit above means: "Shit that would be crazy unstrategic regarding his future political ambitions". Like, he has significant support right now within Trump base, so crazy shit would be things that alienate or destroy that. As long as he doesn't do that, he's fairly strong, if not successful in any nomination, this time around.

On the whole tho this comment thread went just about as you could have expected it would have done, on HN, sadly. Ugh...I don't mean the flag, that's to be expected, HN dislikes politics...but I mean there's no discussion: it's just 1 pole, another pole, no common ground, no relationship, people can't talk.

I'd hope US politics was more discussable 8 years after 2016...If people can't discuss, that's not democracy...

[gigatexal]

Nothing about me responding will be fruitful nor would it be liked by HN (not fellow readers but the mods. Hi Dang ;-)

Generally I’m abhorred by all this America first rhetoric and all this idolatry of strong men pontificating and puffing out their chests like military dictators.

[rvz]

> Nothing about me responding will be fruitful nor would it be liked by HN (not fellow readers but the mods. Hi Dang ;-)

Who cares? Don't run away after making a claim without evidence. The parent comment wants strong evidence to your claim. Don't say "Just Google it" or "Ask ChatGPT" as the burden of proof is on you.

This is you:

Claim:

> He already said “crazy shit”.

The request of evidence:

> Did he? Like what?

You:

.....

This is the sort of discussion that happens when one is asked to substantiate their claims and is unable to do so. In fact by you doing this, you already broke the guidelines anyway. [0]

> Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. [0]

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[gigatexal]

Since you both seem unable to google such things … https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67655552.amp

Any one of the claims there are batshit.

If you think Jan 6th was an inside job you probably think 9/11 was …

He’s also aligned with far right groups. Crazy being brown and Indian like I am and then being the poster child of such groups.

[keepamovin]

> Since you both seem unable to google

Is that how you feel? Why? I mean... 'Crazy' is your view. How do you expect other people to find stuff that supports that? I just wanted to know what you meant. I wasn't challenging your view, I was just curious.

But ok...the way you reacted was interesting. I wanna dive into that.

So you expect other people to just think the same as you? Because it's other people's fault if they don't go to Google to back up your claims? As if what you say is some Holy Text or proclamation and they just need to be enlightened, or figure out on their own how true it is? Hahaha! :)

Expecting others to provide support for what you say is an abuse of responsibility, as it's on you to support and detail what you say. Anyway...

This is an important point to understand about discourse. When you do that, it's a form of passive aggressive resistance. You start a discussion, then resist participating, but attack others that do. It's like you want to pretend you're view is the only right one, without having to talk to anyone to figure out how they think about it. (Strangely authoritarian viewpoint for someone who talks like they against that tho! :))

I get doing it that way is a good feeling, and it's OK to nurture yourself like that emotionally, to protect the nascent seed of an idea or realization from outside hostility, say. But if you're not ready to test your views, it might be better to not share them, if you only expect or want assent from others, right?

Otherwise it's just abusive to other people: you say something potentially provocative, then blame them and even attack them if they don't agree, which is not a nice way to treat people.

I think you're just trying to deal with the crazy zeitgeist we're in--and admittedly that's very hard to deal with!--but when you do it this way, it does make you look...not nice.

Anyway...

---

> If you think Jan 6th was an inside job you probably think 9/11 was …

OK, he probably is talking about conspiracy theories to boost his support. That would be a smart strategy since it's popular.

But conspiracy theory is a subjective label, it's not objective truth. And these things, like 9/11 and 1/6 are hardly settled questions.

The weak hypothesis, that's well established, is that US intelligence has some sort of foreknowledge of 9/11, but didn't prepare. There's certainly conceivable motivation to use an attack on the homeland as a pretext for a war that was desirable from a certain calculus. And there's various stronger versions you can escalate to from there...

Regarding 1/6, it's also well established that many of the participants were in fact undercover FBI agents. And, sadly, they even encouraged, orchestrated and ring-led others, effectively coaxing or even coercing them into the acts that, later the same entities then prosecuted those, for participating, in the acts that they had encouraged. So while the entire thing may not have been an "inside job", the fact of LE involvement in boosting it is well established, I think. (Again, strange view for an anti-authoritarian, that kind of 'secret police' type behavior is not exactly the image of fairness and justice).

So it might be a bit challenging to say those things are "batshit", when there's support for both the positions that Vivek mentioned in that BBC article you linked.

> If you think Jan 6th was an inside job you probably think 9/11 was …

So, if you're willing to consider the evidence and think outside of a mainstream official line, then...yeah and? Hahah! :)

It's wise to adopt an attitude of trust toward the government and corporations, but it's also true that there may be cases where you place too much trust in them. Unpalatable and painful as it is, is it so unreasonable to consider that these large entities and institutions might lie or dissemble, or even actively try to undermine the interest of particular groups? I don't want to think that's true, but I have to face that reality, if it is.

You don't strike me as someone who would doubt that, necessarily. But...I don't know. We live in strange times, maybe you have all kinds of different crazy ideas, idk. Maybe you just haven't thought it through and are just generally dispeptic toward the world as a reflection of your life. But I think you genuinely have a good valence, even if maybe you're misinterpreting some people and events.

Regarding you being brown and Indian, I guess it must be hard for people who feel they share some cultural or skin color or experience connection with Vivek to see him saying and achieving these things. It could cause all kinds of emotions to arise. Is it impossible that some of your reaction to him could be expressing that?

Maybe, he's this really successful immigrant (2nd gen) and he's accepted by the mainstream American culture seemingly, and there's a kind of sense of betrayal or jealousy toward him by others who feel ownership over or kinship with those cultural experiences he came from? Or is it like a caste thing, like he seems like the kind of rich-kid Indian guy who was pushing other Indian kids around and acting like he was better than them?

I was thinking this when I saw one of the town halls. He got very passionately hostile questions from a lady who I guess was Indian.

I was genuinely interested in what you had to say. But if you don't want to participate, and instead want to play the fake victim oppressed by an evil HN majority, then just don't participate. No need to be hostile about it. That's not about anyone but you. And you seem like you're a good person...maybe a bit sad...but good.

Hahaha. Like I don't think people should use the zeitgeist political discourse fractures as ways to take out their own emotional issues. Gotta be other avenues for that that don't try to rope in other people and actually are more productive for the folks using it to take out their issues. Hahaha! :)

No need to take that out on others, right? :) Anyway, have a good one man! :)

[gigatexal]

Because something is popular doesn’t make it right. Politicking to win influence by making outlandish claims and appeasing fringe folks with conspiracy theories makes me think he’s more h hinged than politically adept.

But I can’t tell if your rebuttal is sincere or you’re trolling. I hope it’s a troll because if sincere I’m thinking your ends-justify-the-means thinking is dangerous.

I guess my vote will cancel yours but if there are more tech folks that think like you I’m going to buy puts on the whole idea or America.

[keepamovin]

Well I guess that went just about how I expected it would.

You like to keep at a safe distance, judging and criticizing others' in vague terms, or just misrepresenting, but not saying much about your own. You accuse others of being dangerous, bad, therefore implying that you're right, and good. Perhaps it's your own guilt that your projecting..and the need to criticize others? Your own unmet needs, including, for absolution?

I'm interested in what you did or what experiences you had that made you feel so guilty like that? Perhaps critical or absent parental issues and no sense of belonging so the criticism is the hard shell you use to survive, insulation for the love you never got? Or military service that you came to disagree with, and now you're seeking for an answer and meaning in the 'revolution...of goodness'? Hahaha! :)

But on the whole this tactic you use -- it's pretty ego driven and insensitive...funnily enough tho, this absolutism, and non-inclusive authoritarian labelling of others as "wrong" has unfortunately come to characterize much political discourse! Like I was saying, people can't talk.

But back to you...Why are you like that, tho? Do you know?

You "can’t tell if your rebuttal is sincere or you’re trolling"? Do you often have trouble understanding people? I guess that could explain why you seem to find it difficult to talk about these things without being supercilious and acting as if others are morally beneath you.

If you wonder why I bother trying to talk with you when you have obvious contempt...it's because I feel like there's something better in you than what you show! :) I get you're afraid to show that, tho...But I see it.

Now to your points, they mostly seem mischaracterizations:

- What end justifies means 'thinking' in what I said? What if there's nothing that requires justification? To suppose there is, seems like it's your projection.

- 'Dangerous' is a subjective label, not a fact. What 'dangerous' in what I said, to you? But it's funny to accuse others of being dangerous---don't you think the way you're treating others is...dangerous?

- 'Think like you'? Do you really know how I think? No, you don't. But, tell me how do I think, to you?

- Your vote will cancel mine? What vote? What canceling? Are you talking as an American of the election?

> Politicking to win influence by making outlandish claims and appeasing fringe folks with conspiracy theories makes me think he’s more h hinged than politically adept.

Don't you think that characterizes much of democracy, tho?

Have a good one man! :)

[keepamovin]

I get what you mean. It can come off in a bad way, but at the same time any time anybody gets proud or feels satisfied, it's natural body language--male or female. Try it yourself: think of a good memory from your life, embody it, give yourself up to the memory...then... feel your spine straighten, and a smile rise to your face.

There's a difference, but it's also very similar. The world doesn't have to be a place where there's nothing to feel happy about or proud of! :)

But also, the easy analogy between the actual dictators of the past and the entertainment politicians of today...is made too loosely I think. And that drive to label and mislabel, is a classic tool of propagandists, which are highly associated the things those labelers are apparently also against (ie, dictators, authoritarianism, puritanism, monoculture, punishing of dissent, etc).

I don't think it's your fault. It's the weird thing about today where it's like we can't talk about anything, even of these (think about it, fundamentally) minor differences. Heavy sigh....