[rocgf]

I see this argument frequently and I never could understand quite where it's coming from.

Throwing manual labor into the conversation is disingenuous since nobody would ever make the argument that some tech billionaire has a harder working life than someone shovelling gravel 16h per day. It's obvious that's not what anyone means, so why even point this out?

Elon Musk may not be "smarter" than the engineers who work for him, but then why didn't they start a company like Tesla? The argument for Elon's success is built into the results themselves. There's no going around that, without serious mental gymnastics.

[lapcat]

> nobody would ever make the argument

> It's obvious that's not what anyone means

I disagree. Citation needed.

Regardless of what other people mean by "hard work", what exactly do you mean by it, and how exactly do the wealthy work harder than everyone else?

> why didn't they start a company like Tesla

Musk technically didn't "start" Tesla, but anyway there are several reasons. For example:

1) They didn't have the capital. Musk himself didn't have the capital to invest in Tesla or SpaceX until several previous businesses were acquired by bigger businesses. eBay acquiring PayPal was the big one.

2) They didn't want to? The smartest people in the world tend not to be motivated primarily by money and greed. Also note that Musk started out working on websites and financial services, which is how he made his initial capital, but that wouldn't necessarily interest auto or space engineers.

Remember that Steve Jobs made most of his wealth from Pixar and selling it to Disney rather than from Apple. Was Steve Jobs "smart"? Sure, but WTF did Steve Jobs know about making films in 1986? Nothing. He was just a rich dude with some capital to invest. Why didn't some indie filmmaker become a billionaire instead? Because indie filmmakers don't have the capital.

[rocgf]

> Regardless of what other people mean by "hard work", what exactly do you mean by it, and how exactly do the wealthy work harder than everyone else?

You get too caught up in the meaning of "hard work", as if your only purpose it to use its pedantic definition as a gotcha.

Hard work in the way you define it is not and should not be rewarded just for the sake of hard work. It cannot work this way and you don't want it to work this way, regardless of what you may think. If we did that, the world would stop working. So whether the wealthy work more or not is irrelevant.

> Musk

The anti-Musk sentiment is now at cult-like levels and I'm afraid that rational conversation is not on the table anymore. Somehow Elon's name is associated with some of the most revolutionary companies of the past decade, yet still you'd argue that he doesn't work hard, isn't smarter than his engineers, is basically just lucky. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself. If the guy who created SpaceX is not impressive to you, then I'm not sure who is.

He is kind of a moron in his tweets and has done some despicable shit, but I am able to separate this from his accomplishments.

[lapcat]

> You get too caught up in the meaning of "hard work", as if your only purpose it to use its pedantic definition as a gotcha.

No, I personally don't use the phrase myself in normal conversation and would be glad if it simply disappeared entirely. I'm only responding to the people who use the phrase to justify massive inequality of wealth, so I'd like to hear what you think it means, and how it justifies that inequality.

> The anti-Musk sentiment is now at cult-like levels and I'm afraid that rational conversation is not on the table anymore.

The submitted article is about the "Five richest men", of which Musk is one, so it's not like I'm bringing up his name out of context. He is the context here.

> yet still you'd argue that he doesn't work hard

I didn't argue that. I don't even know what "hard work" is supposed to mean here, which is why I'm asking you. You're the one who said, "I don't understand why people refuse to accept that some people are smarter, work harder..." Yet you seemingly refuse to say what you mean by that. If manual labor isn't hard work, then what is hard work, exactly?

> is basically just lucky

He is lucky. You don't think the following is a lucky set of circumstances to get a massive payoff?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk#X.com_and_PayPal

"Even though Musk founded the company, investors regarded him as inexperienced and replaced him with Intuit CEO Bill Harris by the end of the year. In 2000, X.com merged with online bank Confinity to avoid competition, as the latter's money-transfer service PayPal was more popular than X.com's service. Musk then returned as CEO of the merged company. His preference for Microsoft over Unix-based software caused a rift among the company's employees, and eventually led Confinity co-founder Peter Thiel to resign. With the company suffering from compounding technological issues and the lack of a cohesive business model, the board ousted Musk and replaced him with Thiel in September 2000. Under Thiel, the company focused on the money-transfer service and was renamed PayPal in 2001. In 2002, PayPal was acquired by eBay for $1.5 billion in stock, of which Musk—PayPal's largest shareholder with 11.72% of shares—received $175.8 million."

Without that lucky jackpot, none of your "revolutionary companies" would exist.

> Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.

I don't really care. I'm not a "failed billionaire". I've never in my life even aspired to wealth. It's not among my priorities. What I do care about is the disproportionate political power exercised by the ultra-wealthy, and how it makes our whole society worse.

> If the guy who created SpaceX is not impressive to you, then I'm not sure who is.

A lot of people are impressive to me, but I don't give a damn about SpaceX. I don't believe in the Mars fairy tale that's been sold to space nerds, and I wouldn't bat an eyelash if SpaceX folded and stopped operating tomorrow. Furthermore, I think there are too many rocket launches polluting the atmosphere and too many satellites being put in orbit. I'm not a fan.

[rocgf]

Look, to be honest, I just think we have vastly different opinions and views on the world and how it works. There is absolutely nothing in your message that gave me any pause, and I think we start from irreconcilable positions.

> I'm only responding to the people who use the phrase to justify massive inequality of wealth, so I'd like to hear what you think it means, and how it justifies that inequality.

I do think that there is probably too much inequality for it to be healthy for society, but I am not of the opinion that "billionaires should not exist" or that anyone rich is some version of evil.

I believe fundamentally that two workers who have different productivity and/or different work ethics should be compensated differently. Elon Musk (and many rich people) have, on average, better work ethic and considerably better output. Just by the fact that Elon has been involved in so many successful ventures at a global level, that is by definition proof that he is doing something better than virtually all of us.

> I don't even know what "hard work" is supposed to mean here

In previous replies you associated hard work with physically strenuous work. I think they are orthogonal concerns. Working hard means making progress on problems at the edge of your abilities. By your definition, someone shovelling bricks for 8 hours is working harder than someone working 8h in an office. By mine, that is not necessarily true.

Also, even if your definition was true, paying someone purely on how 'hard' they work would still not be a good idea.

> Without that lucky jackpot, none of your "revolutionary companies" would exist.

This sentence does not sound as good as you think it does.

Sure, loads of people end up with the biggest percentage of shares in a company like PayPal and then also continue with other extremely impactful ventures, one after the other at the edge of technology. Repeated moonshots is "lucky".

> I don't believe in the Mars fairy tale that's been sold to space nerds

Me neither, but have a look at how many launches have happened each year before and after SpaceX, in a field entirely dominated by national agencies. No matter which way you cut it, SpaceX has ushered in a new era in space exploration. I won't even bother arguing more about this, this is honestly ridiculous.

[lapcat]

> I believe fundamentally that two workers who have different productivity and/or different work ethics should be compensated differently. Elon Musk (and many rich people) have, on average, better work ethic and considerably better output.

Half the population has better than average work ethic.

Does Musk have a better work ethic than his lesser paid employees? That's dubious. After all, he infamously demanded that Twitter employees be "extremely hardcore" and work "long hours at high intensity". But these employees are not compensated nearly as much as Musk. They're not even rewarded at all in many cases. He still fired a bunch of them afterward, even the women who tweeted a photo of herself sleeping in the office.

What about the work ethic of the poor people who work multiple jobs because one job doesn't pay enough? How is there any relation whatsoever between work ethic and income? Note that Jeff Bezos, one of the other five richest men whose income doubled, actually quit his job! You don't make massive money from working for wages, you make massive money from owning assets and waiting for them to appreciate. This is how Musk got his PayPal payoff despite having been removed from power by other investors.

There are countless people in the world who are extremely smart and have a great work ethic. But that doesn't automatically bring great wealth. A lot of it is being in the right place at the right time. Do you need to be smart and have a good work ethic to take advantage of the opportunity? Yes, probably. But most people aren't lucky enough to get those opportunities in the first place.

It also helps to ruthlesslessly pursue wealth with no regard for ethics...

> Just by the fact that Elon has been involved in so many successful ventures at a global level, that is by definition proof that he is doing something better than virtually all of us.

He makes more money than virtually all of us. That's beyond dispute, and indeed the subject of the submitted article. It's basically a tautology though and not an explanation.

> Working hard means making progress on problems at the edge of your abilities.

Well, as I mentioned, loading shampoo bottles into crates for 8 hours was definitely on the edge of my abilities.

> Sure, loads of people end up with the biggest percentage of shares in a company like PayPal and then also continue with other extremely impactful ventures, one after the other at the edge of technology. Repeated moonshots is "lucky".

You're missing the point. Musk was kicked out of his own company not just once but twice for incompetence. Yet he still got a $175 million payoff. That's failing upwards.

He ought to be kicked out of Twitter for incompetence too, but unfortunately he can't be.

> have a look at how many launches have happened each year before and after SpaceX

I did, and I already said I don't like it: "I think there are too many rocket launches polluting the atmosphere and too many satellites being put in orbit."

[rocgf]

You seem hell bent on pretending to not understand what I am saying. I'm sorry, but I will not be replying anymore.