[robomartin]

What you generically call "government meddling", I call (more precisely, imho) "corporation-funded, lobbyist-enabled legislative corruption".

This is a very popular view generally promoted in the more liberal corners of the political ecosystem. Not being in either the liberal or conservative extremes I tend to see things differently.

You have to ask a few questions to get to the bottom of it:

  Q: What are lobbyists?
  A: Organizations that create a way to reach out to 
  law-makers directly, voice opinion and have some 
  influence on relevant matters.

  Q: Why do businesses use lobbyists?
  A: Because they can and it provides them with a way 
  to navigate an already complex system.

  Q: Why are corporations able to fund lobbyist?
  A: Because it is legal

  Q: Why is it legal?
  A: Because politicians passed laws allowing it.

  Q: Why did they do that?
  A: Many reasons.  
  One might be that they need that funding to stay in power.
  Another might be that they don't really care about us but
  would much rather ensure their own political existence.
  Yet another might be that we, the people, don't really
  show-up in any meaningful way on their radars outside of
  elections.  
  And, finally, one more reason could be that, well, we allow it.

  Q: What should we do about it?
  A: Make it illegal.

  Q: Would corporations and lobbyists then be able to influence legislation?
  A: Maybe, but at least not through those legally-provided channels.

You don't have to ask too many questions to get to the fundamental reasons behind a problem. It's hard to hide from reality. I don't have a problem with someone (or a corporation) using the available legal framework to advance their cause or standing. If the means for political influence produce bad results the system is to blame, not the user of the system.

A simpler example might be in product design. If I design a chainsaw that is faster and more powerful to use I'd expect businesses to use it to gain advantage over competitors and make more money. If, as a result of this more people are getting hurt because the design isn't very sound, you don't turn around and blame the businesses using it. The design was at fault. Bad engineering. People will use what they are given to work with. Fix the problem, not the symptoms. It's not a perfect analogy, but it illustrates the fundamental idea.

[luser001]

You keep repeating the same thing (politicians are the the causing entities, corps. are the reacting entities) even in response to a challenge to rethink that assumption. That doesn't mean it's true.

One can reasonably disagree with your simple-minded answers (imho). Notably wrt the third, fourth and fifth questions. Another possible answer is that corps. and bribers wanted a way to legally bribe politicians (to avoid jail time for illegal bribery), and hence created the concept of legal lobbying (it doesn't exist in many other countries, btw).

[robomartin]

Please don't call anyone simple-minded, particularly when you don't know them.

Nobody is saying that politicians are the root cause. We elect them. Ultimately it is our fault for allowing it. Then some of these folks appoint people to other positions. The appointments are probably worst than the already-challenged elected official.

When I hear someone carry the "corporate greed and corruption" flag I have a viscerally negative reaction to the statement. I don't know you, so I can't know where you are coming from. To be clear, what I am about to say has nothing to do with you and is not aimed or intended to represent you at all.

Whenever I've heard this from people in person that either I know or have an opportunity to learn more about the profile almost always falls within a certain range. Liberal, democrat, sometimes government worker or union member, no entrepreneurial experience, no understanding of the business process and no experience attempting to launch and run a business.

A lot changes once you've experienced the realities of business. I can't name one business driven purely by greed other than boundary examples such as the Madoff mess. Even the most maligned financial companies have to sell a product and cater to a customer base. Oil companies, for example, are a favorite punching bag. Are they driven by greed? Of course not! They sell a product. And they sell a product that requires huge investment. They are perfectly entitled to earn a profit and they are entitled to earn as much as the market will support. Supply and demand. If they take legally allowed action to enhance their standing or ability to compete, well, that's the law. Until it is changed they are doing nothing different than engaging in the "SEO" of their industry.

Somehow there's an automatic trigger point that says that large companies are driven by nothing but greed. Really? At what revenue level does greed become the underlying driving force? What where they driven by until they got to that level? I don't see anyone talking about companies such as Apple that way? Why? They are large. Very large. They don't do anything any other enterprise does not do. They manufacture in China. So do others, except that, when it is Ford that does it "they are greedy" is the first response.

Anyhow, let's agree to disagree. My world view probably does not intersect with yours in but a few places. And that's OK. I learn a little from everyone. Maybe one day I'll see things as they really are. Thanks.

[luser001]

I said your answers were simple-minded. You certainly don't come across as being such. I'm sorry if I offended you.

[robomartin]

No problem. Sorry I took it the wrong way.

Of course every issue has a simple visible portion and then there's the 90% of the iceberg under the surface. I view simple ideas as fundamental to start the thought process going. A lot of them are not viable due to the details and real issues deep down inside. I realize that.

[anigbrowl]

Q: Why are corporations able to fund lobbyist? A: Because it is legal

It would be more accurate to say that there are no laws limiting the practice. You are reasoning as if governments set up the lobbying mechanism and then invited people to form organizations to engage in the practice. Historically speaking, this is not the case. There's a constitutional right to petition the government in the first amendment, and people are simply exercising it.

If, as a result of this more people are getting hurt because the design isn't very sound, you don't turn around and blame the businesses using it. The design was at fault. Bad engineering. People will use what they are given to work with.

Like the employees of the businesses that bought the defective chainsaws in order to gain a commercial advantage? The companies in your example weren't given a defective chainsaw, they elected to purchase them because the devices promised a commercial advantage. If they're injuring the employees, then maybe the employers should be compensating them and recovering their losses from the product manufacturer...which is quite similar what happens with workman's comp, funnily enough.