[scubbo]

(To set the tone clearly - this seems like an area where you know a _lot_ more than me, so any questions or "challenges" below should be considered as "I am probably misunderstanding this thing - if you have the time and inclination, I'd really appreciate an explanation of what I'm missing" rather than "you are wrong and I am right")

I don't know if you're intentionally using "colour" to reference https://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2015/02/01/what-color-is-... ? Cooperative multitasking (which I'd never heard of before) seems from its Wikipedia page to be primarily concerned with Operating System-level operations, whereas that article deals with programming language-level design. Or perhaps they are not distinct from one another in your perspective?

I ask because I've found `async/await` to just be an irritating overhead; a hoop you need to jump through in order to achieve what you clearly wanted to do all along. You write (pseudocode) `var foo = myFunction()`, and (depending on your language of choice) you either get a compilation or a runtime error reminding you that what you really meant was `var foo = await myFunction()`. By contrast, a design where every function is synchronous (which, I'd guess, more closely matches most people intuition) can implement async behaviour when (rarely) desired by explicitly passing function invocations to an Executor (e.g. https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-use-...). I'd be curious to hear what advantages I'm missing out on! Is it that async behaviour is desired more-often in other problem areas I don't work in, or that there's some efficiency provided by async/await that Executors cannot provide, or something else?

[versteegen]

> I ask because I've found `async/await` to just be an irritating overhead

Then what you want are coroutines[1], which are strictly more flexible than async/await. Languages like Lua and Squirrel have coroutines. I and plenty of other people thing it's tragic that Python and Javascripts added async/await instead, but I assume the reason wasn't to make them easier to reason about, but rather to make them easier to implement without hacks in existing language interpreters not designed around them. Though Stackless Python is a CPython fork that adds real coroutines, also available as the greenlet module in standard CPython [2], amazing that it works.

[1] Real coroutines, not what Python calls "coroutines with async syntax". See also nearby comment about coroutines vs coop multitasking https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38859828

[2] https://greenlet.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

[wglb]

Bliss 36 and siblings had native coroutines.

We used coroutines in our interrupt rich environment in our real time medical application way back when. This was all in assembly language and the coroutines vastly reduced our multithreading errors to effectively zero. This is one place where C , claimed to be close to the machine falls down.

[kragen]

interesting, i didn't even realize bliss for the pdp-10 was called bliss-36

how did coroutines reduce your multithreading errors

[wglb]

I’m working up a blog post and will let you know when it is ready. Not at my desk just now

[kragen]

that sounds awesome! i hope to have a chance to read it!

[kragen]

well some of the things i know are true but i don't know which ones those are; i'll tell you the things i know and hopefully you can figure out what's really true

yes! i'm referencing that specific rant. except that what munificent sees as a disadvantage i see as an advantage

there's a lot of flexibility in systems design to move things between operating systems and programming languages. dan ingalls in 01981 takes an extreme position in 'design principles behind smalltalk' https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/smalltalk....

> An operating system is a collection of things that don't fit into a language. There shouldn't be one.

in the other direction, tymshare and key logic's operating system 'keykos' was largely designed, norm hardy said, with concepts from sigplan, the acm sig on programming languages, rather than sigsosp

sometimes irritating overhead hoops you need to jump through have the advantage of making your code easier to debug later. this is (i would argue, munificent would disagree) one of those times, and i'll explain the argument why below

in `var foo = await my_function()` usually if my_function is async that's because it can't compute foo immediately; the reasons in the examples in the tutorial you linked are making web requests (where you don't know the response code until the remote server sends it) and reading data from files (where you may have to wait on a disk or a networked fileserver). if all your functions are synchronous, you don't have threads, and you can't afford to tie up your entire program (or computer) waiting on the result, you have to do something like changing my_function to return a promise, and putting the code below the line `var foo = await my_function()` into a separate subroutine, probably a nested closure, which you pass to the promise's `then` method. this means you can't use structured control flow like statement sequencing and while loops to go through a series of such steps, the way you can with threads or async

so what if you use threads? the example you linked says to use threads! i think it's a widely accepted opinion now (though certainly not universal) that shared-mutable-memory threading is the wrong default, because race conditions in multithreaded programs with implicitly shared mutable memory are hard to detect and prevent, and also hard to debug. you need some kind of synchronization between the threads, and if you use semaphores or locks like most people do, you also get deadlocks, which are hard to prevent or statically detect but easy to debug once they happen

async/await guarantees you won't have deadlocks (because you don't have locks) and also makes race conditions much rarer and relatively easy to detect and prevent. mark s. miller, one of the main designers of recent versions of ecmascript, wrote his doctoral dissertation largely about this in 02006 http://www.erights.org/talks/thesis/index.html after several years working on an earlier programming language called e based on promises like the ones he later added to js; but i have to admit that, while i've read a lot of his previous work, i haven't read his dissertation yet

cooperative multitasking is in an in-between place; it often doesn't use locks and makes race conditions somewhat rarer and easier to detect and prevent than preemptive multitasking, because most functions you call are guaranteed not to yield control to another thread. you just have to remember which ones those are, and sometimes it changes even though your code didn't change

(in oberon, at least the versions i've read about, there was no way to yield control. you just had to finish executing and return, like in js in a web page before web workers, as i think i said upthread)

that's why i think it's better to have colored functions even though it sometimes requires annoying hoop-jumping

[pjmlp]

> async/await guarantees you won't have deadlocks

You will get them in .NET and C++, because they map to real threads being shared across tasks.

There is even a FAQ maintained by .NET team regarding gotchas like not calling ConfigureAwaitable with the right thread context in some cases where it needs to be explicitly configured, like a task moving between foreground and background threads.

[neonsunset]

(it arguably needs to be updated, so that people stop writing single line 'return await' methods which waste performance for no reason (thankfully some analyzers do flag this))

[kragen]

thank you! i haven't tried using .net more than a tiny bit