[mainde]

I think that there are very few tasks in competitive multiplayer games that humans perform better than machines[1], I don't think your statement holds true unless you exclude a huge amount of game genres or you take all the fun out of them. (E.g. no FPSs or ..FPSs with no aiming?)

[1] Unless we're talking about captcha solving competitions, for now, maybe. :)

[kuschku]

You're right in that, if your server rejects inputs that are too fast, too precise, too robotic to be human, bots will emulate the top-playing humans ever more closely.

But the question I want to ask is: Is that a problem?

If all the bots and cheaters are playing indistinguishable from high-level real humans, where's the harm?

Or, to quote Westworld: If you can't tell the difference, does it matter?

[0x457]

> If you can't tell the difference, does it matter?

There is a difference in skill level distribution. If everyone playing at a highly skilled player level, then it's simply not fun and doesn't provide an opportunity to get better.

Anyways, playing with cheaters isn't fun and if you want to play without them then you need anti-cheat and/or game to not be free.

[kuschku]

But not everyone is cheating. There will always be enough players that even if you just match players based on their skill level, you'll always have someone at your own level to play with.

In fact, I'd like to see the same bots developed by cheaters be used for NPCs as well.

[Wytwwww]

I don't think it would be very hard to develop AI bots which can "see" through walls or one shot snipe you from 200 meters away while you're running. Why would anyone want that, though?

[kuschku]

You missed 90% of my comment, and I'm not entirely sure why.

1. It's easily possible to limit cheaters to the same skill level as the top human players. Send no information to the client that they don't need, prevent super-human reaction times.

2. If all cheaters can do is play at the level of the top human players, matchmaking will automatically balance the game for you without requiring any further anticheat.

3. If cheaters have bots that play at the same level as the top human players, you could use the same bots as NPCs and have much better NPC teammates and enemies in singleplayer.

[0x457]

It's irrelevant. I play a lot of destiny 2 and the trials were extremely annoying before anti-cheat.

Imagine you're one win away from going flawless (7 consecutive wins) and some asshole jumps in the air and headshots your entire team in as fast as the gun allows it.

That's not fun. That means you have to start over. You get lucky if you only get cheater(s) in your first game, so there isn't any progress lost.

This resulted in a very shallow matchmaking pool with large skill gaps because casuals and mid-tiers didn't want to deal with this bullshit.

[kuschku]

You're complaining about superhuman cheaters. Again, that's something that can be easily prevented.

And if the cheaters can't play any better than the top human players, there's no harm done. At that point it doesn't matter if it's a cheater that's breaking your streak or a top human player that's doing the same.

[0x457]

> Again, that's something that can be easily prevented

Yeah, with anti-cheat.

I think you have never seen destiny 2 PVP maps. They are small. The majority of times, you see the cheater and the cheater sees you. The difference, between cheaters and not-cheaters - you're dead by the time you ADS.

[mainde]

Uhm, yes, I think it is a problem because unfairly losing isn't as fun as fairly losing or fairly winning. Ignorance about the fairness of a game may work in a few instances but would not scale.

You don't have to reach pro levels, it often only takes small assists to turn a balanced game on its head, ruining someone's experience with a game. Repeat often enough and the userbase will leave, feeling cheated or at least demoralised for being unable to compete or improve.

And allowing machine-assists, thus leveling the playing field, turns the game into a completely different one that is (imho) drastically less fun whoever may not be interested in (or may be unable to) running/coding their bot.

[kuschku]

Why would you be unable to compete? The matchmaking system will still put you against users on a similar level to yourself. Whether they're your level through cheats or natively doesn't matter.

A player playing cs go at 1280×720 at 30 ps on a ball mouse will always loose to one on playing at 2560×1440 240fps with a high-quality mouse.

Now there's one more dimension of unfairness. But who cares? You're still going to be winning ~51% of the time, that's why matchmaking systems exist.

[Wytwwww]

> Now there's one more dimension of unfairness. But who cares? You're still going to be winning ~51% of the time, that's why matchmaking systems exist

No. That's not how it's going to work. You'll lose 100% games against cheaters Elo and then win 80% (or similar) against lower-level players you get matched against because your Elo goes down due to cheaters. Overall yeah, you might end up with a 50% win rate but that doesn't really matter.

Of course that would be more pronounced in RTS or other 1v1 or team games with small number of players (then again nobody would play them anymore because it would just be waste of time, when you're matched against a cheater because you'll be forced to waste X min before you figure that out).

[kuschku]

You don't seem to understand the situation, and I'm unsure why.

If your anticheat prevents any superhuman reactions, you'll have cheaters that will be indistinguishable from the top human players.

How often do the top human players ruin your gameplay experience as an average player today?

Why would it be any different with cheaters indistinguishable from the top humans?

Matchmaking will just give cheaters a relatively high ELO so that the highest ranked matches will be cheaters playing against each other with a few of the top human players thrown into it, competing at the same level.

While for the average player, nothing will change.