[elktown]

Someone got to say it so I will. Most of your comments comes across like you've gone off the rails and started replacing competency, not to mention humility, with narcissism. Being so cocksure and backing it up with statements that you need to be as brilliant as you to "understand" is such a laughingly large red flag that I'm not surprised people interpret it as satire. I really hope your colleagues are onboard with this and that this isn't your own dogmatic crusade dragging them along.

[jrs235]

I don't read cockiness or narcissism in his posts. Having just started reading Clean Architecture by Robert C. Martin two days ago (and hoping to complete it tonight, then planning on re-reading it again), it seems to me that hmeh has learned and PRACTICED what is discussed in that book. I wish I were in their shoes!

[rezonant]

There are parts of CC that are still quite controversial, even amongst folks who agree generally with what Uncle Bob is saying.

[jrs235]

Clean Code (What I assume you are referring to with 'CC') is 10 years older than Clean Architecture. I haven't read Clean Code, I just picked up Clean Architecture, but I venture to guess some of his thoughts have changed since then. I also assume that Clean Architecture deals with higher level issues than Clean Code. I may have to pickup Clean Code to see what he said in that.

[hmeh]

Thank you. I saw your other post, but it’s gone now. If you want to find me, I’m in the Eventide project Slack and on GitHub (you can find links to some of my posts here in this thread).

[elktown]

Let's just say that that sphere of the software dev community isn't exactly universally seen as competent work, more like the orthodoxy of ~15 years ago that's now increasingly, and in my opinion rightfully, being put into question for its bad complexity and performance trade-offs when applied beyond textbooks and conference talks. And this is being diplomatic compared to others.

I'm certainly not saying there isn't something to learn from them though, I've read a bunch of them, but after seeing countless wasted debugging hours and projects devolve into a complete mess of patterns where you have to ping-pong between files, functions, and patterns providing little to no value is astounding. The option to do non-clever code is seemingly insulting to the self-professed architect, but it is in my own experience at least, vastly more maintainable and productive, not because it results in "clean" code - it's usually pretty dirty and nothing to write home about, but because reading even a page-long flat procedural function that's just doing its thing, is much more straight-forward than ping-ponging between some clever architect's conglomeration of decaying design patterns.

Having the "meat" of the code available with a minimal amount of abstractions/layers also makes it much easier to adapt according to performance requirements without having to propagate changes throughout half the application due to it being entangled in pattern abstractions. (on that note, it sounds like hmeh is trying to work around this problem with abstractions by doing a significant amount artificial partitioning. But that would be solving a mess you've created yourself in the first place). Finally it will still be dumb & dirty code a couple years from now, no need to have all those design patterns internalized.

People promoting these things will of course then just blame it on the dev and call them average, or lacking in experience, because they can't identify and combine the various clever patterns correctly, they "are doing it wrong", and that's where I believe the above narcissistic tendencies I called out comes from.

[jrs235]

I see a difference between "Clean Code" and code design patterns and "Clean Architecture". It seems to me that most think I'm speaking of Uncles Clean Code book/ideas when I'm thinking about his Clean Architecture book/ideas.

[hmeh]

> The option to do non-clever code is seemingly insulting to the self-professed architect, but it is in my own experience at least, vastly more maintainable and productive, not because it results in "clean" code - it's usually pretty dirty and nothing to write home about, but because reading even a page-long flat procedural function that's just doing its thing, is much more straight-forward than ping-ponging between some clever architect's conglomeration of decaying design patterns.

With all due respect, if you think you are talking about anything that I was attempting to describe, you are not. Everything that we do is based on simplicity and building the most simple things that we can. We may have different definitions of simplicity however. For mine, check out Rich Hickey's "Simple Made Easy" talk if you haven't seen it.

We simplify things by de-complecting or, avoiding entanglement. Having separate repositories is just one way to re-enforce the simplification that we put in place with design. We call that structural design (because it's the design of the actual structure of the application).

> on that note, it sounds like hmeh is trying to work around this problem with abstractions by doing a significant amount artificial partitioning.

I can guarantee you that none of the partitioning is "artificial". I think at this point that you have projected so much of your experience into what I am saying that it's impossible for you to see anything I say in any other light. This, by the way, is what I mean by tacit knowledge. I say X, and you either hear Q, or you hear XIENRSTIENRSTIERNST, either way, you cannot possible understand what I am saying. This isn't a negative reflection on you, or a positive reflection on me. It's simply the way that tacit knowledge works, and it's why most "internet arguments" are wastes of time.

> People promoting these things will of course then just blame it on the dev and call them average, or lacking in experience, because they can't identify and combine the various clever patterns correctly, they "are doing it wrong", and that's where I believe the above narcissistic tendencies I called out comes from.

And yet, it is literally lack of experience (and ability) that prevents people from doing things they cannot yet do. That's how expertise works. Pointing that out is not narcissism. A gardener does not have the experience (or training) necessary to do brain surgery. This isn't a mark against the gardener. The difference in our industry is that it is filled with expert beginners. People who think that because they make 6-figure salaries after their limited education and experience they can now understand everything there is to understand about software design. This just isn't the case. If a person sees that as a slight to a fellow human, that says more about them than it does about the person pointing to that reality.

[hmeh]

> Someone got to say it so I will. Most of your comments comes across like you've gone of the rails and started replacing competency, not to mention humility, with narcissism. Being so cocksure and backing it up with statements that you need to be as brilliant as you to "understand" is such a laughingly large red flag that I'm not surprised people interpret it as satire.

Where did I say that, exactly? I’ve said nothing about intellect. I’ve mentioned tacit knowledge multiple times, because I have enough experience to recognize how ludicrous a lot of this sounds. It sounded that way to me at first until I experienced it and saw the pieces fit together. That’s how tacit knowledge works, especially when it is counter to average knowledge. It’s the same reason American industry smashed Japanese cars in demonstration instead of listening to them when they said large batches were bad (I’m simplifying here somewhat)

And which part, specifically sounds incompetent? I’m happy to discuss that.

By the way, it's decidedly difficult to challenge a common belief, dare I say, orthodoxy, without sounding insane, confident, or even cocky. Could I be better at it? Of course, and I work at it, but I also am not here to make friends. I'm here to provide a perspective that I believe is sorely lacking from the development community and is drowned out by the orthodoxy, its acolytes, and its beneficiaries.

> I really hope your colleagues are onboard with this and that this isn't your own dogmatic crusade dragging them along.

Given their tenure on the team and their other options, it’s a pretty safe bet. It’s not my crusade, btw, it’s our teams goal to manage a relatively complex project with a relatively small team.

Also, someone has to say it, so I will. You have now dropped this conversation, which was about the work, into ad hominem and straw man attacks. That’s one of the worst part about this industry: people’s inability to debate and discuss without attacking people or glorifying celebrities.

[elktown]

> into ad hominem and straw man attacks. That’s one of the worst part about this industry: people’s inability to debate and discuss

Let's see here:

> You have experienced what happens when web developers cosplay as software architects.

> That is, you experienced an average team doing average work misguided by average bad advice. It says absolutely nothing about software design. It only speaks to the fat part of the bell curve doing what it always does.

> because, unlike them, I have significant material experience in both camps.

> It’s hard to imagine worse advice.

> But please, by all means, continue to spread disinformation and keep us in the dark ages.

> Just read the author’s bio. This is a person that appears to have zero software design experience writing an article telling you to ignore software design and just respect your team configuration. I call this Conway’s Confusion.

That sets a good friendly tone huh? If you can't take push back, don't be an arse to begin with.

> And which part, specifically sounds incompetent? I’m happy to discuss that.

Your arrogance precludes a fruitful discussion. But I believe that this needs to be called out, if nothing else to nudge other people to also do it when they see it, or to, albeit much less likely, nudge you towards eating some humble pie.

[hmeh]

> Let's see here:

Yes, let's. I have no problem with push back.

> You have experienced what happens when web developers cosplay as software architects.

I agree that this is overly snippy to the point of being counter-productive. It represents a particular emotional frustration with the state of our industry. We knew what ended up being microservices (web API servers making web API calls to other web API servers) was a failure mode. We knew you couldn't just introduce network hops and call it "architecture". So yes, I'm annoyed about that such that I'm willing to call out nameless "web developers", but I understand how that can create discomfort.

> That is, you experienced an average team doing average work misguided by average bad advice. It says absolutely nothing about software design. It only speaks to the fat part of the bell curve doing what it always does.

Indeed, and the person I was responding to effectively acknowledged this. The sooner we can recognize that the skill curve/technology adoption curve are real things, and crossing the chasm takes hard work, the sooner we can stop leaving people behind said chasm. It's not easy. Nothing I said here is untrue. If it is, please point it out.

> because, unlike them, I have significant material experience in both camps.

Again, I'm pointing to a material difference. Most people who are attempting to refute what I am saying have never done what I am saying. They are doing it from a position of fear, uncertainty, and doubt, or worse. I've been where they are. I've fought the fight they are fighting and, thankfully, I lost, and was introduced to new ways of doing things and seeing things. If a person has done what I'm discussing, I would expect them to say that and tell me why it failed. Instead I get people telling me it can't work and I'm incompetent, etc.

> It’s hard to imagine worse advice. > Just read the author’s bio. This is a person that appears to have zero software design experience writing an article telling you to ignore software design and just respect your team configuration. I call this Conway’s Confusion.

Putting these together because they are about the OP article and the OP. "hard to imagine worse advice" is hyperbole, but it is bad advice. You can't force fit concepts to teams. I mean, you can try, but you'll always end up with unnaturalness.

The actual OP's bio talks about their career. None of it mentions software design. If a person with zero surgery experience started writing about how to properly set up operating rooms, you can darn well bet they will be called a charlatan and called to the carpet. If they aren't people may die. Software isn't that serious usually, but it's not hard to imagine that there have been billions upon billions of dollars flushed down the toilet for the sake of poor software design that no one speaks out against.

> But please, by all means, continue to spread disinformation and keep us in the dark ages.

Yes, overly cynical and unnecessary. I made my point prior to this and I didn't need to add this.

> That sets a good friendly tone huh? If you can't take push back, don't be an arse to begin with.

Some was unnecessary yes, thanks for calling it out. The rest represents what I think is healthy push-back against an orthodoxy that causes more harm than good. We can achieve more as an industry and make our way out of the realm of hobbyists and into something more serious. Many of us call ourselves engineers, but nothing we do resembles anything that people who are actually classically trained engineers do.

> > And which part, specifically sounds incompetent? I’m happy to discuss that.

> Your arrogance precludes a fruitful discussion. But I believe that this needs to be called out, if nothing else to nudge other people to also do it when they see it, or to, albeit much less likely, nudge you towards eating some humble pie.

Just to be clear: you said that what I was saying sounded incompetent. I asked you about that, and you're telling me I appear to be too arrogant for you to tell me why I sound incompetent? Please, tell me what I said that sounds incompetent. Let's move past the ad hominem portion of the discussion now and talk about the actual substance. I'll do my best to refrain from hyperbole and unnecessary snark.

[elktown]

Answered somewhat what I mean by at least the "code smells" and idiosyncrasies (competency was probably too harsh with given the amount of info) in a reply to another user.

> Your arrogance precludes a fruitful discussion.

This was specific to the tendencies in other replies to defer to your (or your team's) brilliance/experience as the answer to why your setup is not suspicious, but excellent. Not sure what can come out of a discussion when that's the answer to everything, well nice for you, but a setup that doesn't scale with employee count (and thus competency/experience/interest differences) isn't exactly something that you can go around bragging about.

[hmeh]

> This was specific to the tendencies in other replies to defer to your (or your team's) brilliance/experience as the answer to why your setup is not suspicious, but excellent.

I touched on this in my reply to the other user, but at this point, I believe you may just not know what tacit knowledge is. You continue to think that I am pointing to our own brilliance. I'm not. I'm calling a spade a spade. I recognize what it takes to gain particular types of knowledge (tacit, or subtle knowledge), and I recognize that it's this reality that prevents most conversations about techniques from being fruitful.

Each participant will put their own experience behind the meaning of their words (and worse, their conversation partner's words) and it will prevent them from recognizing what one another are saying. The only way to have a fruitful discussion is for both sides to be capable of recognizing when that is happening. Since, in my experience, most people aren't -- they'd rather die on their hill than recognize that the person they are talking to is simply on the same hill but sees it differently, or they are on a different hill that really is better, but it cannot be seen as such yet, because it is over the horizon of their knowledge.

I don't actually know if you are interested in understanding this more or if you joined the conversation just to try to put me in my place, but if you are, here are some articles that may help:

https://madabout.software/articles/subtle-knowledge-crude-kn...

https://madabout.software/articles/design-is-subtle-knowledg...

Once you can recognize that there is subtle knowledge you might actually see my pointing to it as attempting to keep the conversation from devolving into exactly the type of thing that it tends to devolve into. Or not.

[elktown]

> I believe you may just not know what tacit knowledge is

Not sure where you got that from, haven't said anything about it nor did I include that in my quotes.

I'm well aware of it. But if I have one comment on it would be that I see it more as something an experienced person (or someone with a natural knack for it) makes use of under-the-hood, the resulting quality of the output however can usually be recognized by everyone, not something reserved for the "blessed ones". Take the redis source code for example (quite a few years since the last time I read it though). The author clearly has this skill, but one doesn't have to possess that to recognize the code quality (and btw, iirc without any mentions of a pile of design patterns/methodologies, just "doing it", but to each their own).

So therefore I'm a bit suspicious of anyone that claims that their idiosyncratic setup is actually simple if you just have experience enough to be able to judge it. I'm not saying that everything can be obvious at first glance but the vagueness triggers my radar after being worn down by experiencing way too much over-engineering motivated by self-serving vagueness and/or word salads ("baffle them with bullshit").

That said, if a code base keeps requiring you to make the correct design decision using subtle knowledge, that's a fragile situation and something seems off. You've probably already made the code base too complicated, my prejudices (somewhat confirmed by the language used in one the articles you linked [1]) would be through a pile of design patterns inspired abstractions that now everyone needs to be able to juggle at all times.

[1] "For example, the Tell, Don’t Ask principle can’t be expressed directly in terms of Push, Don’t Pull, which has a more common name: encapsulation. And each one of these qualities reflects cohesion and coupling. And furthermore, cohesion and coupling are inter-related and affect each other. Afference and efference are kinds of coupling. Afference is inbound coupling, and efference is outbound coupling"