Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by sandworm101 907 days ago
Absolutely no sympathy. Those who live by the patent shall die by the patent.
3 comments

I’m holding judgement until the case is investigated further. It’s my understanding that so far everyone has basically said, “there’s enough evidence to proceed in court.”

Patent reform is something that is sorely needed (and more funding for the USPTO).

Take for example this patent on an anti gravity device: https://www.nature.com/articles/438139a#:~:text=The%20US%20p....

And then there’s the patent troll problem. As a small shop, I am particularly afraid of trolls shutting us down overnight with basically no recourse.

>> As a small shop, I am particularly afraid of trolls shutting us down overnight with basically no recourse.

I be more scared of non-trolls who own giant catalogues of patents. The giant companies will shut you down just as fast as any "troll". Try to invent any device with a touchscreen and an internet connection. It won't be trolls knocking on your door, but lawyers from Samsung, Apple and Microsoft.

How do companies like FairPhone exist then?
Well we exist too, but it makes it a tiny bit harder to sleep at night having nightmares about trolls. Thankfully we haven’t been targeted.

I do think a better system exists, and I’m all ears for any ideas around patent reform/USPTO funding.

Wait so you and FairPhone could get sued by a patent for a small screen with internet?
IANAL, but I feel like everything has basically been patented these days. The wording in many is so vague.

They would probably be thrown out in court, but that takes time and money. Small startups have very little of either.

I am really just pointing out that we need patent reform and better enforcement very badly.

I assume by a combination of:

- Not a serious competitor

- Based in Europe

- Bad PR to shut down a company trying to create a cruelty-free smartphone

As an outsider, it certainly looks like they “re-engineered” the other companies tech and introd into their devices.
Don’t they have to reverse engineer it in a clean room? Also, Masimo said they poached a lot of their talent who understood the patent and its uses.
Patents can't be circumvented with the "Chinese wall" idea that happens with copyright-based reverse engineering. There is no alternative to licensing if you want to use a technology.
Oh it’s for copyright only. So what legal standing does Apple have and why didn’t they just pay the licensing fee? Unless they wanted litigation to go after these type of patents being sealed off?
Apple can attack the patent as being invalid (and go for an IPR), they can argue that they are not infringing, or they can pay a license fee. My guess is that Apple was too cheap to pay an acceptable license fee, so they figured they could strongarm this company in court.
What’s the alternative? Not play the patent game and die by the patent anyway?
For most people and companies, yes. But for Apple? They could have used their money and influence to campaign for patent reform.
Why would they do that?
Deadweight loss of needing to maintain a patent portfolio to defend against other infringement cases?
Should've started after the IAP patent troll debacle.
abiding by the laws and weaponizing the law for your own benefit are two different things.
Such companies probably exist, we just never hear about them because of survival bias.
Open source patents, like Tesla does.
>> What’s the alternative?

Don't play the game of building products that are subject to other people's patents. If in doubt, buy them out. Pay for the international rights regardless of whether you think a patent invalid in some market. Apple isn't exactly struggling for cash at the moment. It can afford to pay for the patent rather than stage what is starting to look like a PR event.

When has Apple ever sued over patent infringement? There was the Samsung case [1] but that was a design issue.

Apple, Google, Meta and other big tech companies have used patents defensively not offensively. That is, as mutually-assured destruction.

The real villains in this story are the patent holding companies that sue in East Texas to get in front of one judge that, at a time, heard a quarter of all US patent cases, all brought by NPEs (non-practicing entities aka patent trolls). IIRC there was at a time another judge and I heard a story that a popular law firm employed a relative to conflict out the second judge so they could get the judge they wanted.

Apple aren't the bad guys in the patent mess.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Samsung_Electron....

Would you accept weaponized trademark infringement as a sibling to patent law? The behavior described here seems odd -- I wouldn't call it "good" or "bad" in a moral sense just technically impressive: https://blog.giovanh.com/blog/2023/10/26/apples-trademark-ex... and https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/14/21436760/us-customs-state....
Since the article is about patents I, too, limited the scope of my comments--quite deliberately--to patents so these are really out-of-scope. I mentioned Apple v. Samsung because of the confusing language ie "design patent".

The first case you mention is against third-party repair and parts. This isn't a simple issue. At one end of spectrum people have died from fake accessories (eg [1]). So while I trust (and use) Anker devices that are sold in the US, would I buy and use a charger in Cambodia? Probably not. So I support the idea of third-party repair but you have to deal with the question of quality and the parts being suitable.

The second relates to, again, design (and trademark). This is less defensible. I mean they do look like Airpods but really how many ways can you make an earpod?

[1]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/apple-replacing-fake-iphone-...

https://www.phonearena.com/news/HTC-had-shipped-blocked-phon...

Happened back in '11 when they were going after Android OEMs, despite the fact that the actual devices weren't infringing they still tried to get them blocked.

> When has Apple ever sued over patent infringement?

Apple vs. HTC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litigation_involving_Apple_Inc...

Normally, the threat implied by a patent moat is sufficient, so it doesn’t come to a lawsuit.

What is hilarious in that article is the quote from Jobs himself:

"[We] think competition is healthy, but competitors should create their own original technology, not steal ours"

It was exquisite to see Apple complain for several generations that everyone was copying them, then turn around and pretty much clone the HTC M7.

Then they had the gall to sue HTC. Glad the judge ended up forcing their hand, a rare case where might didn’t make right.

What product of theirs is a clone of the HTC M7? I'm looking at the device, and I don't get it.
iPhone 6. The HTC A9 is another one, but that was much less high profile as it isn’t a flagship device.
From the article we're commenting on:

> Masimo CEO Joe Kiani told CNN he believes Apple deliberately infringed on his company’s patents. But the companies have been at loggerheads for years. In October 2022, Apple filed two patent infringement lawsuits against Masimo.

While not "sue-ing" but instead the other way - being trying to avoid paying for patented tech. They tried to stop paying licenses for their PowerVR-derived GPUs, which they were explicitly developed from so no "convergent evolution" excuses. Announcing it to the market then caused a massive abandonment of PowerVR and stock price drop, and purchase at fire sale prices by a Chinese "Strategic investment" group.

It never even made it to court - and they have since scrubbed all statements about that, and to this day still pay for the architecture license. Just too late for PowerVR as an independent IP vendor.

Never be a supplier to Apple - they will screw you over.

Foxconn and TSMC have good businesses on being suppliers to Apple. Sharp too until they got acquired by Foxconn.
I might expand this to "Being a Tech supplier to Apple is a mistake" - they seem quite happy with exporting their labor-intensive costs, and whitewashing themselves of any "questionable" activities in the process.

TSMC is an interesting one, as they're pretty much the only person who have made that business model work, and even Apple's total business in that area is smaller than their scale seems to require.

Thisnis the internet, no need to post half remembered fragments. I'm sure the judge you're referring to is the notorious Rodney Gilstrap.

Plenty of good info on that operation, e.g. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/east-texas-judge...

That was, I believe, they judge they wanted to get in front of. At one point there was another judge in that district that they didn't want to get in front of and a law firm just so happened to employ the second judge's son (? IIRC).
Judge Jacqueline Scott Corley didn't recuse herself from hearing the Microsoft-Activision FTC case just because her son works at Microsoft (and ruled in msfts favor!)

So are recusals for such conflicts really optional?

https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/will-the-biggest-tech-mer...