[deaddodo]

Again, this is just pettyfogging.

An individual human is clearly and blatantly observably more intelligent and capable than an individual chimp.

The fact that y'all are speaking in such abstracts is telling in its own right. No one is saying animals are incapable nor that they don't possess plenty of abilities humans lack, however in the specific fields of strict intelligent thought processes (reason, abstraction and logic) and social interaction; it's not even a comparison.

The vast majority of animals can't even recognize themselves in a mirror let alone conceptualize other planets, atomic structures, mechanical processes and forces, mathematics, abstract concepts, create social contracts, etc.

It's just....ridiculous to even be having a discussion on this. It's honestly akin to discussing vaccines with a COVID denier.

[nobodyandproud]

> The vast majority of animals can't even recognize themselves in a mirror let alone conceptualize other planets, atomic structures, mechanical processes and forces, mathematics, abstract concepts, create social contracts, etc.

This is true, but it takes a great deal of creativity and awareness of a species, to create a “mirror-test” that applies to said species.

The naive mirror test is flawed. That’s not say most species will pass; just that it was laughably bad experiments that are being revisited.

> It's just....ridiculous to even be having a discussion on this. It's honestly akin to discussing vaccines with a COVID denier.

Why is it ridiculous? Nobody is saying humans aren’t smarter.

You’re looking at the end results of societies to prove that we’re orders of magnitude smarter; but take away our ability to write and record knowledge for the next generation: What are we left with? How scalable and robust are oral-tradition cultures?

Also note that none of the things you’ve mentioned came naturally to humans: It took many millennia of trial and error to build up and even so it takes the threat of homelessness starvation for the majority to give a shit and learn this stuff.

Instead, I’d argue it takes a great deal of self-awareness and humility to tease out what gives us the leg up over other species, even if it makes some uncomfortable.

[deaddodo]

> You’re looking at the end results of societies to prove that we’re orders of magnitude smarter; but take away our ability to write and record knowledge for the next generation: What are we left with? How scalable and robust are oral-tradition cultures?

Very, considering we started at the exact same point as all of those other "equally" intelligent creatures.

So yes, it's ridiculous.

[nobodyandproud]

How so?

We have human societies that never moved past hunter/gatherer; or basic agriculture. Or perhaps reverted back.

Does that imply that they’re somehow less intelligent? And so, by an order of magnitude?

I don’t expect anyone to change your mind—that much is clear—but for someone like me it’s an interesting question because it gets to the heart of what it means to be intelligent; aware; and driven.

Even the standard “man is the measure of all things” has more nuance than at first glance.