[davely]

This immediately reminds me of a book I read a year ago about a man who walked off into the woods of Maine in 1986 and lived as a hermit for 27 years [1]

[1] “Stranger in the Woods” by Michael Finkel: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30687200

[huytersd]

The craziest thing about this guy is he spent every Maine winter over those 27 years without lighting a single fire to keep him warm because he thought it would expose him. He would just stay awake all night and start walking around when he thought he was getting so cold it might be dangerous. That really to me is hell on earth. At least Petrov lived in California where it was mostly nice year-round.

[asimpletune]

I met a self-described “mountain man” in Montana once, and I asked how he stayed warm in the winter. He told me the key was to build an insulated nest, below ground, packed with snow, and then you light a single candle and close up the nest. That this was enough to stay warm even in the Montana winter.

It’s hard to know if what he was saying was true or not, but I think I believe it. He also saw my VW and immediately observed that it had been in an accident based on the way the doors hung. So, I feel like he knew some stuff.

[hodgesrm]

That’s how snow caves are constructed. Tunnel in and up in a snowbank so that the floor of the cave is higher than the ceiling of the entry tunnel. The air in the cave will equalize to 32F once you enter thanks to body heat. As far as I can tell this works well in any temperate climate because the snowpack tends to be warm(er) at the bottom and warmer air rises.

At any rate it worked in all my snow caves, which was admittedly not a large sample but included places like Teton pass in Wyoming.

[throwaway2037]

> The air in the cave will equalize to 32F once you enter thanks to body heat.

This is an interesting post! Can you explain the science behind why 32F/0C is important here? For example: If I build a snow cave in a place where it is -30C, -20C, -10C, 0C outside, will they all "equalize to 32F/0C"?

[devilbunny]

Snow is a very good insulator due to all the trapped air, and it’s fairly easy to make thick walls (the same as straw-and-mud block construction - not the highest R value per cm thickness, but if the walls can be 50 cm thick, it adds up). So yeah, a proper snow cave will converge on freezing point - body heat plus lighting will heat to that point, after which the snow melts.

[huytersd]

You might survive 32F but you can’t possibly make it for very long if you have to be that cold night after night.

[hodgesrm]

Actually 32F without wind is no big deal if you have a decent sleeping bag. Plus it gets warmer as you do more stuff inside (e.g., cooking). Igloos have the same design and can get pretty warm. [0] The real problem in my experience is that it's quite humid. Since you are insulating with snow it evaporates and raises the humidity up to the dew point.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igloo

[huytersd]

I guess it varies from individual to individual. I can be out in 110F weather all day comfortably if I have enough water and a large hat but have very low tolerance for the cold.

[gen220]

You have to poke holes in the ceiling, and make sure the they’re clear every day.

If you light a candle, the snow will melt and freeze into a film of ice.

The holes are important for ventilation in general, but it also allows vapor to escape.

When we built them we’d use ski poles to make the holes. You don’t want them to be too big or you risk the structural integrity of course. There was a ratio of hole count : people that we followed but I can’t remember that detail (:

[gen220]

I camped out like this once per year in my teens!

It was lots of fun. We’d hike into the snow pack set up a tent the first night, and spend the second day building snow caves and sledding. Then we’d build a bonfire that would melt down to the ground (or a boulder) by morning. Good times.

Caves take way less time to set up than an igloo and only requires a shovel for equipment. Although, it requires more maintenance for long-term shelter than an igloo. There’s good documentation on how to build one online.

[hutzlibu]

But he did use gas bottles to heat up things and this can make all the difference. Still, not pleasant.

Oh - and you automatically stay awake, when it gets too cold. Only when you are really exhausted and sleep in the cold, you will never wake up (from various movies and books I was afraid of this trope when I was younger, but nope, as long as you have energy left, your body automatically wakes you up and starts moving to create heat). Not being able to sleep, because of cold, is one of the less awesome outdoor experiences. On the other hand, the more you enjoy the sun on the next day (if you are lucky and there is sun).

[DaftDank]

I learned this the hard way when I was homeless at 17-18 years old in the middle of Wyoming winters. I had at least had my old Grand Cherokee to sleep in the trunk space, but not enough money for gas to run the heater. I'd pile all my clothes on top of me, but there were always patches where the cold got through and I'd spend so many nights just shaking from the cold. Spent the Christmas of 2004 this way. You are also correct that when it would be sunny (but still cold) the next day, it was an awesome experience. Almost like a ray of hope, as cliche as that sounds. It's crazy what having sunlight can do to improve your mood. That's one reason I loved living in SF later on, there were so many sunny days and I also wasn't homeless lol.

[solardev]

Merry Christmas man, hope this one is better for you!

I was also homeless with a car for a while, but in a much warmer climate. It's no fun!

[worik]

What evil you two tell of

So much wealth in the world, and an eighteen year old sleeping in the trunk of a car in a continental winter

"Poverty is a sin A sin of the rich"

[DaftDank]

Thanks, man. I appreciate that. Merry Christmas to you as well and Happy New Year!

[NaOH]

I haven't read Finkel's book on Christopher Knight, but other pieces on Knight were discussed here, with distinct tones to the discussions.

Into the woods: how one man survived alone in the wilderness for 27 years - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13878801 - March 2017 (124 comments)

The Strange and Curious Tale of the Last True Hermit - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8205993 - August 2014 (86 comments)

[7thaccount]

This the guy that basically lived in a tent and stole from those in the nearby community for decades right? I agree it must have been difficult in the middle of the night when it was cold, but it's not like he was farming, hunting, or foraging in the forest.

[mc32]

There is also Daniel Suelo who left everything behind and moved into the caves in and around Antelope Canyon: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/03/homeles...