[hef19898]

And give up membership in the most powerful military alliance in human history, reduce US international influence and give up the most lucrative defence market in the world. This idea is so spund, even the Congress GOP voted for a law preventing the POTUS from pulling the US out of NATO on his own.

I agree so, that Europe should be less dependant on the US, we sure shoupd have a very solid and competitive defence sector supplying the various European armed forces.

[efitz]

You mock the idea, but then support it? I do not understand.

I agree that the US defense industry likes the status quo, and lobbies congress to keep the money flowing.

I agree that the US gains considerable influence over Europe via the current arrangement.

I don’t think it is a great idea for European countries to be US client states.

Why is this a bad point of view?

[hef19898]

Being a NATO member is not being a client state... And the thing I support is a stronger EU defence industry, not the US leaving NATO or whatever you read into my comment.

And yes, the idea of the US leaving NATO is so bad it is only loughable, the only ones happy about that would be Russia and China. US influence is not limited to Europe so, NATO activities stretch to Afghanistan (past tense), Iraq (same), Ukraine, Africa, the Balcans...

As bad as NATO intervention was during the war on terror period, and boy was it bad, tue alternative would be either Chinese or Russian dominance in those regions. And that would be even worse. NATO, human rights and all that is a different topic so.

[jampekka]

Being dependent of another country for defence is not very far from being a client state.

[hef19898]

And where is Europe dependant on the US for defence? NATO is an alliance, one that served, and serves, each member state quite well... Sometimes ignorant American exceptionalism is tiresome...

[jampekka]

Clearest example is Iceland that doesn't even have its own military.

If NATO is such an equal alliance, why is US the only "partner" that e.g. has (a lot of) military bases, running on their own laws, in other "partner" countries.

Edit: And my point of view definitely isn't from American exceptionalism. I oppose my country's (Finland's) NATO membership and watch in horror how there's now going to be 12 bases in Finland that are essentially under pure US control (Finnish laws don't apply there, or even to the US personnel outside the areas, and Finland has no say in US military coming and going as they like).

[hef19898]

Iceland as a nation has less residents the mid-sized German town I live in, guess what my home doesn't have a military of its own neither. What Iceland has is strategic importance, just google SOSUS.

Agree on the bases thing, some of the CIAs kidnapping flights went through Rammstein in Germany and nobody did anything.

Not much I can say about Finlands NATO memebership, I am actually neutral on that. Or rather fall into the group of people that see NATO expansion to former Warsaw pact countries as something Russia could be less than thrilled about. That being said, only the future will tell if NATO membership is agood thing for Sweden, Finland and co.

Being a NATO member defenitely doesn't make a nation a US vasal, se way EU membership doesn't make a nation a vasal of Brussels. And yes, I know opinions differ on that one as well.

[mopsi]

> Edit: And my point of view definitely isn't from American exceptionalism. I oppose my country's (Finland's) NATO membership and watch in horror how there's now going to be 12 bases in Finland that are essentially under pure US control (Finnish laws don't apply there, or even to the US personnel outside the areas, and Finland has no say in US military coming and going as they like).

That's a very sensationalistic take. No military bases will be established. The agreement between Finland and the US is about prepositioned stockpiles for use in case of war. Since the stockpiles belong to the US government, it is natural that they demand unrestricted access to warehouses holding their stuff.